I got a 9250SE (going to get something new soon) today and it won't even do 5K in 3dmark01 (ages ago I had a Kyro2 and a Duron 900 that did 4.5k and it wasn't even a DX8.1 card), despite me running my Conroe @ 3.9(ish)GHz. So my question is "Do PCI video cards kill CPU performance?"

probably so, ive got a 9250 256mb PCI graphics card now, but it plays games decently...maybe try updating catalyst drivers...also play aronud the with AGP aperature in the bios, since that takes up memory for onboard graphics...no need for that anymore...

I was using CAT 4.12 which are supposed to be the best in 3Dmark01. I will try newer ones though... probably tomorrow though it too late to run tests new.

I wouldn't goes as far to say the PCI bus kills CPU performance, unless I'm wrong. But the PCI bus is old, only capable of 133Mb/s 32-bit transfer rate @ 33Mhz clock. PCI-X (Not to be confused with PCI-Express) was capable of nearly 1Gb/s data rate at 64-bit and a 133Mhz clock.

AGP 8x is a bus that runs at 66Mhz, but it runs 8 times every clock ... so it's basically 533Mhz, and is capable of data rates of over 2Gb/s. (AGP 4x runs 4 times a clock for 266Mhz, and so on)

Likewise, PCI-Express is capable of 8Gb/s (16 lanes @ 4Gb both upstream/downstream).

I would say you're seeing disapointing numbers because of the old tech you're using. If you can, look on orb and compare your hardware to similar setups, if there are any. You won't see any spectacular numbers coming out of a PCI videocard.

Surprisingly No. If you compare AGP cards and PCI-E, Both cards (regardless of CPU) Get the same scores in Benchmarks. In some tests PCI-E Comes out on top by 0nly 1 to 3 FPS, so there isnt much gain (besides crossfire and SLI...)

Quote: Originally Posted by Nerdz Surprisingly No. If you compare AGP cards and PCI-E, Both cards (regardless of CPU) Get the same scores in Benchmarks. In some tests PCI-E Comes out on top by 0nly 1 to 3 FPS, so there isnt much gain (besides crossfire and SLI...)

True. Most of the reasoning behind PCI-E and even AGP to some extent was marketing. Companies love new device formats - gives them an excuse to charge even more for their products and trick everyone into upgrading.

Quote: Originally Posted by reflux True. Most of the reasoning behind PCI-E and even AGP to some extent was marketing. Companies love new device formats - gives them an excuse to charge even more for their products and trick everyone into upgrading.

But really, Next year (2007) If you havent upgraded you probably will have to in order to use DX10 to its full extent, However I have read (It was around here I think) That M$ is releasing a DX9L version thats basically DX10 without a couple features..

However, that still doesnt mean you need SLI to Play todays games. You Can get a Socket 754 mobo with AGP and CPU pretty cheap. But the downside is AGP Might be phased out (Or atleast youd think so). Given a year or so, PCIE and Socket 939 will come down in prices if they already havent.

Quote: Originally Posted by Nerdz M$ is releasing a DX9L version thats basically DX10 without a couple features.

I read that. Then a day later I read that they're not, from two different sites. Dont really know what to think at the mo.

Well, this card is playing CounterStrike:Source and Half Life 2 @ 1280x720 (everything on low or medium) quite nicely so I'm not too bothered. Hopefully I'll be getting a X19** card and maybe a DFI RD600 if someone will buy my D975XBX2.

Quote: Originally Posted by reflux True. Most of the reasoning behind PCI-E and even AGP to some extent was marketing. Companies love new device formats - gives them an excuse to charge even more for their products and trick everyone into upgrading.

So true... Most of the time you can carry along stuff to your new computer. Now If I want to Upgrade, its new RAM, New CPU&cooler, new mobo, and new videocard.... grr... Usually you only get stuck with upgrading CPU and mobo and can hold off on the others...


EDIT I've got a ATI 9200SE 128MB PCI did you guys flash it to 9250?

Quote: Originally Posted by Dreyco EDIT I've got a ATI 9200SE 128MB PCI did you guys flash it to 9250?

No, mines an actual 9250SE. Not sure if a flash would work...

Quote: Originally Posted by Nerdz But really, Next year (2007) If you havent upgraded you probably will have to in order to use DX10 to its full extent, However I have read (It was around here I think) That M$ is releasing a DX9L version thats basically DX10 without a couple features.. However, that still doesnt mean you need SLI to Play todays games. You Can get a Socket 754 mobo with AGP and CPU pretty cheap. But the downside is AGP Might be phased out (Or atleast youd think so). Given a year or so, PCIE and Socket 939 will come down in prices if they already havent.

There's good stuff there... but Newegg still sells PCI cards, and they even have a geforce 6200, which is good enough for quite a bit. As long as the mfg's still build 'em, the platform isn't dead. I personally don't see any reason to go to pci-e unless you're considering using it for something besides video (yes, you can use that slot for something else!). Then again, I'm not a professional gamer, and I don't give a rat's behind about DX10.

Here it is, nearly 10 years later, and stores are finally runnning out of Socket A chips... but now they're two socket generations ahead. You can still buy socket 478 boards and chips... and as long as you are smart and spend money where it counts (hard disks and RAM) then you can get by with regular DDR and AGP for another few years.

Heck, I've still got Vesa Local Bus video cards in my collection. Anybody here remember those? I got a pile of 72-pin SIMMS too! I can bring the retro pwnage! I need to build a new AM2 setup with a 5.25 floppy, just because I can. And then actually use it.

Quote: Originally Posted by Dex I read that. Then a day later I read that they're not, from two different sites. Dont really know what to think at the mo.

From what I understand - Dx10 uses a unified shader and also gets rid of all the older crap the DX carries with it to be backwards compatible. DX10 will also ONLY work on Vista. The only card right now that can handle DX10 is the 8800 series from nVidia. Dx9L still uses different pixel and vertex shaders and will work in XP. It is not DX10 for Xp. If there is an app or game (Halo 2) for Vista that requires DX10 then you WILL NOT be able to play it on XP. Video Cards with unified shaders will be able to run the specific vertex and pixel shaders as well so they will work in XP

The funny thing is ATI built the video card in the Xbox 360 which uses a version of a unified shader as well so why they were not first to market is strange.

Fear not, AGP-lovers!

Have you read this thread?
AGP ain't dead!

(that's poetry, as far as I'm capable.)

You can pre-order the AGP version of the X1950 Pro (okay, so, it's not the XT) created by GeCube at Overclokers.co.uk. Unfortunately, it's a UK site ... will they ship to America, and does the power translate? Seriously, sounds like a ridiculous question, I know, but I've only once ordered a pc part from overseas and it's the 5.1 headphones I use now ... had to find my own power converter.

-godling

Still running AGP and proud of it (X800 Pro @ 500/525) ... plus 2 gigs of Corsair 3200 XMS @ 2.2.2.5 ... and a stock 2.8GHz Intel ... still kicking FPS buttock.

AGP is indeed still kicking. My X800XT is still a great card, and runs just about anything pretty decent. Maybe next summer I can upgrade my videocard

Quote: Originally Posted by godling and does the power translate? Seriously, sounds like a ridiculous question, I know, but I've only once ordered a pc part from overseas and it's the 5.1 headphones I use now ... had to find my own power converter. -godling

The different voltage requirement (110-120v US, 220-240v UK) is handled by the the PSU, so you can shove any PC components bought from anywhere in your PC and it'll still work fine. Your headphones needed a power converter because they take power straight from the mains.

But pci card is not sharing the bus system with ata HD?

The biggest downside to a PCI graphics card is if it is sharing IRQs with other PCI devices. The more PCI devices you have, the less performance your PCI graphics card will have, since IIRC a single PCI bus controls all PCI devices, hence the need for IRQ sharing.

Look at it this way, textures and data flow through a pipe on a PCI bus about the size of a garden hose. On AGP they are flowing through a fire hose, and on PCI Express, textures are flowing through a sewer main.

Quote: Originally Posted by j-dogg The biggest downside to a PCI graphics card is if it is sharing IRQs with other PCI devices. The more PCI devices you have, the less performance your PCI graphics card will have, since IIRC a single PCI bus controls all PCI devices, hence the need for IRQ sharing. Look at it this way, textures and data flow through a pipe on a PCI bus about the size of a garden hose. On AGP they are flowing through a fire hose, and on PCI Express, textures are flowing through a sewer main.

Excellently put.