I am in deep trouble really, i used to airbrush on papers and i am very good in it.
couple of days ago a customer asked me to do a flame job for him (on his computer case) thanks god its not a CAR! :head_butt:
whent to the market bring lucite dupont (enamel acrylic colors)thats what the paint shop told me its good to start with for novice metal painter!

OK first of all i sanded the side of the case with 500 grit sandpaper to remove the clear, used dupont grease remover to clean the surface... then put a face of BLACK, it came out very sandy and rough!! i sanded it again clean it and used 4to1 thinner to color and less psi give it another try, the result was much better.

now the flames came using mask film that shown in the pic allot of red coats to cover the black (it was thick i know but how it will cover the black !!!

now the DISASTER came .... when i try to remove the film it took the colors of ... showing the base color that was originallly at the case .... even some red layers peeled from each other !!!

please help me what is going on??? why all that peeling???
and is it better to use base coat instead of enamel acrylic, or is it the thinner that am using or what .... i am totally lost????
what to do NOW???

ps. i am using Badger crecendo airbrush in all that work.




I'll be really very thankful for any help that you can offer BEFORE ITS TOO LATE

Mabey you should check the cans of paint to see what it say to cut it with to thin out the paint, or just talk to the guy at the paint shop that sold it to you...Just my 2 cents, sorry if it no help.

Sand 'er all down again, do it over... but before lifting the masking run a razor blade along the edges before peeling it off.

whoever you talked to , they gave you some of the thinnest paint out there. use PPG paint its alot thicker so you can have a little more controll on how you want it to spray. and it looks like your paint is having trouble sticking. get PPG adhesion promoter. (promoter is before you start to paint.)

happy painting.

Just a quick tip. Not really related but for future reference......

When case fascia's are injection moulded it's quite common to find that a silicon based mould-release agent is used on their tooling which transfers to the plastic of the casing (mainly on grained surfaces) which is a common cause of paint not adhereing to plastic parts. To eliminate this it's best to completely wash it over with a non-residue degreasing agent like Isopropyl alcohol or thinners.

First. you should be using a polyurethane basecoat/clearcoat system. dupont is good, ppg is good, house of color is very good, but more expensive. For painting metal or aluminum or plastic, I always use a non sanding epoxy primer (2 part) to insure proper adheasion. Then I apply the poly base-coat, now you can paint your graphics, (using urethane paint) you do not have to use hardener unless the paint you buy requires. check on paint label, or ask dealer before buying. (Always sand or scuff surface before applying second coat of any material and clean thoroughly.) Then when artwork is finished, Topcoat with polyurethane clearcoat.

Quote: Originally Posted by PaintMaster"T" First. you should be using a polyurethane basecoat/clearcoat system. dupont is good, ppg is good, house of color is very good, but more expensive. For painting metal or aluminum or plastic, I always use a non sanding epoxy primer (2 part) to insure proper adheasion. Then I apply the poly base-coat, now you can paint your graphics, (using urethane paint) you do not have to use hardener unless the paint you buy requires. check on paint label, or ask dealer before buying. (Always sand or scuff surface before applying second coat of any material and clean thoroughly.) Then when artwork is finished, Topcoat with polyurethane clearcoat.

Thank you all for your replay.
1-I would like to know, what do you mean by (2 part) dose it mean 2 coats of primer??
2-do you sand the poly base-coat before you paint the graphics and what grit ?
3- i sand the urethane with 600 grit but it left allot of sanding marks, dose these marks vanish after painting the clear coat or what i am doing wrong?
can you please give me better idea about sanding between coats and when you dont sand??......

I really thank you all for your help ......

I've had good results sanding with higher grit counts of wet/dry SP, but only after the coat in question has fully dried. 1000, 1500, 2000ish... My $.02...

Quote: Originally Posted by sanadw Thank you all for your replay. 1-I would like to know, what do you mean by (2 part) dose it mean 2 coats of primer?? 2-do you sand the poly base-coat before you paint the graphics and what grit ? 3- i sand the urethane with 600 grit but it left allot of sanding marks, dose these marks vanish after painting the clear coat or what i am doing wrong? can you please give me better idea about sanding between coats and when you dont sand??...... I really thank you all for your help ......

The two part epoxy primers use an activator, I think that is what he is speaking of. To be safe it is a good idea to sand or scuff the basecoat before laying out your graphics and 600 grit should work perfect. Personally I use a gray scuff pad, the reason is that I do not want to thin out my basecoats, by sanding to much material off. When you are painting with urethanes, you can do your layout usually within a half an hour, so the urethanes you are using in your topcoats will not only adhere with the mechanical adhesion(scuff or sand scratches), but they will also chemically 'crosslink', for great adhesion. Any 600 grit scratches will dissappear with the clear coat.
If I where in your shoes I would have sanded the new paint off with 320, then 400. The original basecoat seems to be very stuck to the surface, so I would leave it there and save some steps. I agree that todays urethanes are fantastic for any metal painting. They have less build, so you do not have a lagre paint edge to bury with clear, they are very fast to work with and they keep very well in a sealed conatiner. You can leave most of the basecoats, even reduced and use them later, ie.... less waste. Also I would have sanded the original clear with 400 grit to flatten and promote good mechanical adhesion. I never like to sand the clear (of the first paint job) off. Often times you leave some of the original clear coat in the low spots and depening on what paint you use, it can craze the left over clear or make a "feather edge", that you will notice even after it is cleared and rubbed out.
On a side note, that mask that you used, Frisket paper does not stick very hard at all and I recommend it for layouts, along with 3M's blue fine line tape. If you are going to pinstripe around your edge then use the fine line paper tape. The blue vinyl tape leaves a very clean edge, as where the tape is a little fuzzy. One thing about using the blue tape, is that vinyl has a great memory and in tight turns you will notice that the tape will try to lift because it wants to lay like it remembered...on the roll and straight. So in the tight truns I use a heat gun, just a little heat is all that is required to make the tape lay tight in your turns.
I have been painting for the same crew since '86 and I feel your pain, happens to all of us. Do not give up, the only time that I would give up, is when you stop learning by your mistakes.

Hope this helps,
Isom

Quote: Originally Posted by Insomniac The two part epoxy primers use an activator, I think that is what he is speaking of. To be safe it is a good idea to sand or scuff the basecoat before laying out your graphics and 600 grit should work perfect. Personally I use a gray scuff pad, the reason is that I do not want to thin out my basecoats, by sanding to much material off. When you are painting with urethanes, you can do your layout usually within a half an hour, so the urethanes you are using in your topcoats will not only adhere with the mechanical adhesion(scuff or sand scratches), but they will also chemically 'crosslink', for great adhesion. Any 600 grit scratches will dissappear with the clear coat. If I where in your shoes I would have sanded the new paint off with 320, then 400. The original basecoat seems to be very stuck to the surface, so I would leave it there and save some steps. I agree that todays urethanes are fantastic for any metal painting. They have less build, so you do not have a lagre paint edge to bury with clear, they are very fast to work with and they keep very well in a sealed conatiner. You can leave most of the basecoats, even reduced and use them later, ie.... less waste. Also I would have sanded the original clear with 400 grit to flatten and promote good mechanical adhesion. I never like to sand the clear (of the first paint job) off. Often times you leave some of the original clear coat in the low spots and depening on what paint you use, it can craze the left over clear or make a "feather edge", that you will notice even after it is cleared and rubbed out. On a side note, that mask that you used, Frisket paper does not stick very hard at all and I recommend it for layouts, along with 3M's blue fine line tape. If you are going to pinstripe around your edge then use the fine line paper tape. The blue vinyl tape leaves a very clean edge, as where the tape is a little fuzzy. One thing about using the blue tape, is that vinyl has a great memory and in tight turns you will notice that the tape will try to lift because it wants to lay like it remembered...on the roll and straight. So in the tight truns I use a heat gun, just a little heat is all that is required to make the tape lay tight in your turns. I have been painting for the same crew since '86 and I feel your pain, happens to all of us. Do not give up, the only time that I would give up, is when you stop learning by your mistakes. Hope this helps, Isom

Very nicely discribed INSOM!!!! I just want to add a few tips reguarding sanding/scuffing between coats.
Firstly, if your basecoat is a vivid metallic (silver or gold) and you sand these before recoating with graphics or candies etc. you will see the scratches because you will actually be dis-figuring the way the metallic flakes lay. Sooo what to do you may ask? Well... all paints have what is called a "window" of recoatability meaning that if you recoat within the manfacturers specified time frame, you don't have to sand /scuff the previous coat to obtain optimm adheasion, due to the chemical crosslinking that insomniac discribed. (although you may still want to slightly sand or nib down any undesired imperfections, before exagerating them with more paint.)
But in the event where you know that you wont be able to get to the next coat before the "window" time expires and you intend to use a silver for a basecoat, I spray 2 thin coats of "intercoat clear" over the silver. Now you have a buffer coat protecting your sparkly base that you can lightly scuf with the grey "scotchbrite" before proceeding with your project. There is also a product called an adheasion promoter which would be applied (sprayed) prior to recoating where sanding would damage the previous coat, such as airbrushed murals or metallics or pearls.

Any fool can "paint" but in painting as in life...wisdom..."something obtainable only by not just making mistakes, but more importantly, learning from them."

A" pro" painter has not only made all the mistakes, but has learned how to fix them. Remember that there is no such thing as a permenant painting mistake. Except to quit! So keep on messin' up! "T"

P.S. That "Badger cresendo airbrush" is ok for detailed smaller painting...but you may want to consider investing in at least a "touchup" or detail gun. not full size but not airbrush. You will not be able to achieve a quality finish using only an airbrush.

Thanks Paintmaster, good eye, forgot to clarify not to sand metallic colors. I would have beeen flamed forever for that one.
It's hard to try to explain paint procedure for everyones different projects and different paints on the market. Trying to explain the perfect procedure, for any given case is hard to put into to typed words, with a thorough explanation. Suprised no one else caught that one.
Thanks again.

Well put guys!!!!!!

Another thing to look out for is tape tracking. This is when tape will leave behind a noticable impression on the paint is has been stuck to. This happens when paint is not fully cured. Some paints, especially cheaper single stage enamels, can track long after the stated cure time. Do not tape to paint that isnt fully cured. Also use a quality tape. Some cheaper tape will leave adhesive behind when you lift it off and could possibly ruin an otherwise nice piece of work.

Another thing you need to pay attention to is temperature. The material you are using should state a cure time at a certain given temp. If your temps are below this then allow an ample amount of time for a full cure before sanding or taping to it. More than likely you are painting at room temps, which the materials you are using probably state well above that, so use your judgement on how much more time is needed. You can use a heat lamp or a small heater to bring the material closer to temp. If the heater has a blower dont point it directly at the surface to keep dust and any other contaminates out of the paint.

Also keep temps in mind when re-coating. As Insom and PMT stated there is a window of re-coat time, but if your temps are lower than needed this window will be set forward a bit. For instance if the can says 5-10 minute flash time between coats at 85 deg. and your are painting in 70 deg. the window would be more like 15-20.

Good luck!!!!!!

Quote: Originally Posted by Insomniac The two part epoxy primers use an activator, I think that is what he is speaking of. To be safe it is a good idea to sand or scuff the basecoat before laying out your graphics and 600 grit should work perfect. Personally I use a gray scuff pad, the reason is that I do not want to thin out my basecoats, by sanding to much material off. When you are painting with urethanes, you can do your layout usually within a half an hour, so the urethanes you are using in your topcoats will not only adhere with the mechanical adhesion(scuff or sand scratches), but they will also chemically 'crosslink', for great adhesion. Any 600 grit scratches will dissappear with the clear coat. If I where in your shoes I would have sanded the new paint off with 320, then 400. The original basecoat seems to be very stuck to the surface, so I would leave it there and save some steps. I agree that todays urethanes are fantastic for any metal painting. They have less build, so you do not have a lagre paint edge to bury with clear, they are very fast to work with and they keep very well in a sealed conatiner. You can leave most of the basecoats, even reduced and use them later, ie.... less waste. Also I would have sanded the original clear with 400 grit to flatten and promote good mechanical adhesion. I never like to sand the clear (of the first paint job) off. Often times you leave some of the original clear coat in the low spots and depening on what paint you use, it can craze the left over clear or make a "feather edge", that you will notice even after it is cleared and rubbed out. On a side note, that mask that you used, Frisket paper does not stick very hard at all and I recommend it for layouts, along with 3M's blue fine line tape. If you are going to pinstripe around your edge then use the fine line paper tape. The blue vinyl tape leaves a very clean edge, as where the tape is a little fuzzy. One thing about using the blue tape, is that vinyl has a great memory and in tight turns you will notice that the tape will try to lift because it wants to lay like it remembered...on the roll and straight. So in the tight truns I use a heat gun, just a little heat is all that is required to make the tape lay tight in your turns. I have been painting for the same crew since '86 and I feel your pain, happens to all of us. Do not give up, the only time that I would give up, is when you stop learning by your mistakes. Hope this helps, Isom

Thank you very much Insomniac that is exactly what i want to know, and to all the great guys who replaied here....
I know that you cant sand metalic colors, because i did it!!!!
you know i am the first one in my country who start this work... very fresh market here!!
but at the same time its really bad, all the paint shops here are totally idiots, have no idea at all about the products that they sell. you need a car paint ok here is it and here is a primer and the clear and gooooooooo!!! no damn data sheets nothing... just mix 2:1 and every thing will work fine that what happened with me the first time .... (and we dont have house of color paints here too).

now i bring a new paint that i find its good from the net its called (Glasurit) basecoat clearcoat sys.
the offecial paint for BMW and Mercedes. and they dont have the same brand clear they sell (Nexa autocolor ppg) clear for it.
three new spray guns, 1.8, 1.4, 0.3 touchup gun. and a new badger 150-7 airbrush set. coast me a hell of money .... and if they didnt pay back .... am gona kill you all loool
sanded the case and prime it and sand it again... will degreas it and start painting it tomorrow....
will post the pix as soon as its ready.

-i was thinking to use paint markers for penstriping ... cause they dont sell the striping paint here!!! any one think or try that before??
or can i use the same paint ( the basecoat with thinner) for pentriping!? any good idea??
- you are talking about basecoat for packground, and urethane for graphics, cant i use the same basecoat for graphics?? as they told me urethane needs hardner that means you cant save it for using it later, then why do you use it, isnt basecoat better so you can use it later for graphics??? or am i missing something here???

YES one thing more, I received 4 new dvds from the states about automotive airbrushing and will share them with any one of you who are helping me here ... thats what friends for
and here is the titles:
-More Automotive Cheap Tricks & Special FX Fraser
-Helmet Airbrushing with Craig Fraser
-Clearcoating Cheap Tricks & Special F/X
-Automotive Cheap Tricks & Special FX 3

Best regards to all of you .....

Quote: Originally Posted by sanadw Thank you very much Insomniac that is exactly what i want to know, and to all the great guys who replaied here.... I know that you cant sand metalic colors, because i did it!!!! you know i am the first one in my country who start this work... very fresh market here!! but at the same time its really bad, all the paint shops here are totally idiots, have no idea at all about the products that they sell. you need a car paint ok here is it and here is a primer and the clear and gooooooooo!!! no damn data sheets nothing... just mix 2:1 and every thing will work fine that what happened with me the first time .... (and we dont have house of color paints here too). now i bring a new paint that i find its good from the net its called (Glasurit) basecoat clearcoat sys. the offecial paint for BMW and Mercedes. and they dont have the same brand clear they sell (Nexa autocolor ppg) clear for it. three new spray guns, 1.8, 1.4, 0.3 touchup gun. and a new badger 150-7 airbrush set. coast me a hell of money .... and if they didnt pay back .... am gona kill you all loool sanded the case and prime it and sand it again... will degreas it and start painting it tomorrow.... will post the pix as soon as its ready. -i was thinking to use paint markers for penstriping ... cause they dont sell the striping paint here!!! any one think or try that before?? or can i use the same paint ( the basecoat with thinner) for pentriping!? any good idea?? - you are talking about basecoat for packground, and urethane for graphics, cant i use the same basecoat for graphics?? as they told me urethane needs hardner that means you cant save it for using it later, then why do you use it, isnt basecoat better so you can use it later for graphics??? or am i missing something here??? YES one thing more, I received 4 new dvds from the states about automotive airbrushing and will share them with any one of you who are helping me here ... thats what friends for and here is the titles: -More Automotive Cheap Tricks & Special FX Fraser -Helmet Airbrushing with Craig Fraser -Clearcoating Cheap Tricks & Special F/X -Automotive Cheap Tricks & Special FX 3 Best regards to all of you .....

First I'll say that ,Yes I have used the paint pens to outline. I've only used the "Pilot" brand silver and gold markers. they are very thin / fine line pens. Just be very careful when applying the first coat of clear, just a "tack coat" so the two components (pen & Urethane) can get aquainted so to speak.

You won't be able to brush the same basecoat paint to pinstripe, as it will re soften the basecoat. But what you can do for perfect penlines is: after you have taped out your design and masked off perimeter, you can paint with airbrush or detail gun around the inside perimiter of design with your basecoat paint using the color you would like to use as penstripe. Then when that dries, you use some 1/8" blue "fineline" tape and tape next to the original layout tape on the inside where you just painted, covering that color.
(take your time and be precise with this step as the thickness of your pinstripe depeds on it!) then you MUST!!! and i repeat MUST run yet another layer of 1/8" tape covering the seam between the initial layout and the pinstripe layout. If you forget...you will get a tiny line of your interior color in between the two.
To answer your 2nd question...yes absolutely! use basecoat for your graphics. you do not want to use the catalyzed type or urethane for any graphic or basecoat work. Because you will waste alot of material. If you do not use catalist in your paint you can pour it back into can. remembering that eventually it will get the paint thinner the more that you do it, so as time goes on, you won't have to thin as much. Besides as you get more experience using the paint, you will only use the recomended thinning percentages as a baseline. Especially when airbrushing. you probably already noticed that 1:1 reduction wont go through the brush. Thinner paint goes on smoother than thick but watch out for the "runns!"
As for the paint you're using,"Glasurit" is very good paint ! you may want to check out this site, they have some really nice stuff and they will ship it to you. www.xoticcolours.com You are going to really like this site and their products! I hope you can get some of their stuff! BTW you can still use your brand of urethane clearcoat over [pretty much any kind of urethane basecoat. Here's another kewl paint supplier: check out www.matrixsystem.com they have some nice stuff too!
If you ever do get some penstriping enamel (1shot) brand is what most of us in the business use....being that it is an enamel, you must put just a pinch of the same catalyst that you will be using in your clearcoat, mix it into not the can but in a separate cup of you striping paint before applying. If you do not do this....it will wrincle like an old mans scrotum! not pretty! I you can get a urethane based pinstriping paint you're safe there too. I personally like the method i discribed to you earlier, as you can use custom colors for striping, and me....I can't stripe worth a poop! Im a shakey dog when it comes to freehand striping. That is one thing that takes years to perfect!!!

Congrats on the purchase of your guns! You can never go wrong buying good tools! so no killing ok? Craig Fraiser is the best! I use his "Cheap tricks and Special Effects" book as the text for the class I teach in custom painting here in Cali. It has an example of just about all you need to know to get nuts deep into this painting stuff! I haven't seen any of his dvd's though...you can hook me up with copies when you gett them! I'd be quite happy to take you up on that offer. If I am one of the "friends" you spoke of . If i may be so presumptuous.lol hey have fun! and feel fee to contact my e-mail if you have any questions. but I like posting here so everyone can bennefit! Laterz! "T"

Wow! As a TOTAL noob, most of my mistakes are still ahead of me. But this brilliant discussion may have helped me avoid more than just a few of them. This is absolutely the kind of guidance I need.
Thank You All!

Quote: Originally Posted by MossRok Wow! As a TOTAL noob, most of my mistakes are still ahead of me. But this brilliant discussion may have helped me avoid more than just a few of them. This is absolutely the kind of guidance I need. Thank You All!

This Thread is a DATA BASE more than just a discussion ..... if you really into painting ... just save every single word of it ..... i did every single mistake here and paid for it money and time!!!

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