I've been able to get my E6750 up as high as 3504 at a 'stable' state (doesn't crash long enough to run wPrime 1024m, although it doesn't always generate a good checksum, and CPU-Z and HWMonitor did NOT want to play well, although testing now at a sane speed and voltage reveals similar fighting).

In order to do so, I've had to relax memory timings basically as far as they'd go (6-7-7-24, on memory that runs 5-5-5-18 at stock) I also had to jerk the CPU voltage up to 1.4125.

If I go much more agressively, the failures are usually "page fault in nonpaged area" bluescreens.

What would everyone reccomend as the way to go forward? ASIDE from an E8400.

The heatsink is a lapped CM Gemini II with one Arctic Cooling 120mm quiet fan on it, but I don't think it's a heat issue.

I get the impression memory might be the issue (the setup is four sticks, two very different pairs-- one pair Patriot 2.0v 2G sticks, one pair Corsair 1.9v 1G sticks, all ran at 2.0v -- 2.1 doesn't seem to make a difference to headroom).

But I don't know of any chipsets or boards that offer weaker memory dividers-- what I have now is the lowest possible RAM speed, and it gives DDR2-876 timings at the highest OC. The board is fairly well-regarded anyway (Gigabyte P35-DS3L)

Will I be forced to yank out 5Gb of memory when I want to make a kamikaze-OC run so I can get it to run stable higher?

Mixed RAM does not usually bode well for overclocking. If I were you, I'd get myself a nice 4gb kit. Have you checked what temps you are getting under load? The GeminII is not the best cooler around...it tends to sacrifice CPU cooling ability for slinging air at the rest of the PC.

What multiplier and FSB are you using? I'm running my Xeon at 3.5ghz, on an 8x multiplier, and I get a nice 1050mhz option for my memory which is what I run it at.

An Nvidia board would let you run the CPU independently of the RAM, but those timings are waaaaaay slack. You're getting into DDR3 territory there, but without the DDR3 speeds.

I would recommend just using 2 sticks of memory and adding a 2nd fan to the GeminII

Quote: Originally Posted by reflux Mixed RAM does not usually bode well for overclocking. If I were you, I'd get myself a nice 4gb kit.

Well, that would be lovely, except that the machine has 6G now. An 8Gb two-stick kit apparently costs about $580 and runs at weak 6-6-6-18 timings anyway.

Newegg.com - G.SKILL 8GB (2 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory - Desktop Memory

Quote: Have you checked what temps you are getting under load? The GeminII is not the best cooler around...it tends to sacrifice CPU cooling ability for slinging air at the rest of the PC.

At stock it seemed to run about 5C under the stock cooler under OCCT load. I noticed the idle temperature was something like 47C at the core. When loading it, since I wanted to get the highest possible benchmark scores, I turned off the fun stuff (up to and including Explorer). I didn't hear a noticable spin-up on the PWM fan though (although it's a quiet one)

Quote: What multiplier and FSB are you using? I'm running my Xeon at 3.5ghz, on an 8x multiplier, and I get a nice 1050mhz option for my memory which is what I run it at.

8.0 x 438. The memory divider I use gives 876, because the memory I have was never advertised as anything but DDR2-800.

Quote: An Nvidia board would let you run the CPU independently of the RAM, but those timings are waaaaaay slack. You're getting into DDR3 territory there, but without the DDR3 speeds.

Yup. I know. I was wondering if there was a CAS7 option I was missing. I'm very hesitant about nVidia boards though, because I might want a Penryn some day (especially if DDR3 remains overpriced, so Nehalem is an initially-unattractive proposition) and the support is so spotty, plus I no longer feel like I should reward nVidia's attitude which seems to boil down to making the entire universe orbit around the graphics card. (the whole 'buy a SLI mainboard to fit with your graphics-card plans' thing)

Agreed, more than 2 sticks of ram tend to be very difficult to OC, especially "Mixed brands" of different sizes, speed and timings.

Most games gain very little above 2GB of ram, though some do tend to be smoother with much improved load times, depends on what you play or the apps you use, often the gain in CPU clock speed can have a more dramatic effect on framerates, Vista is certainly more of a memory hog then XP.

The Gemini as previously stated is not the best cooler around (And not the worst) adding a second fan will help some of course as Slaymate suggested (He should know..he wrote an extensive review on it ) but a better cooler would not be a bad idea, especially if you see a "Quad" in your future someday.


The best air cooler on the market shows a gain of only 210MHZ (Thermalright X-120) over the best OC from a stock Intel cooler on a X6800. The worst cooler they tested gained just 50MHZ, and your "Stock" Gemini showed a gain of 120MHZ, wich is not too bad, but you are definately leaving some on the table.

AnandTech: Noctua NH-U12P: Top Performance AND Silence

Any of the coolers from the top 10 of that list will get you another 50-90MHZ, though the cost of some of the coolers may not make the deal so great, pay close attention to the MHZ gain per $$

If you can afford it, your best bet would be to sell your current ram and cooling, and apply it towards 2x2GB of some decent ram, there are plenty of good 4GB kits for under 100$ these days.

Newegg.com - Computer Parts, PC Components, Laptop Computers, Digital Cameras and more!=

I try to find kits that have timings of 5-5-5-15 or less with 2.1v or less, or as close to that as possible, kits that want 2.2v or more tend not to have much OC headroom in them or run very cool, but typically will still run just fine at reduced voltages if you relax the timings.

Newegg.com - Computer Parts, PC Components, Laptop Computers, Digital Cameras and more!=
This A Data kit seems reasoanble at 83$ with 5-5-5-12 with 1.9~2.v

For the same price you can get a Mushkin kit that uses only 1.8v for 5-5-5-18 and has a 15$ rebate to boot!

Newegg.com - mushkin 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory - Desktop Memory I would bet it matches or beats the ADATA timings with similar voltage.

I realy like this OCZ reaper kit for $110 that can run 4-4-4-15 with 2.1v, and has a 25$ rebate

Newegg.com - OCZ Reaper HPC Edition 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory - Desktop Memory

EDIT: OK, you posted something before I finished my reply...8GB of ram? What the hell are you doing that requires that much? (Photoshop?) or is just a bragging thing, I have yet to see any games that realy needs that much!

Quote: Originally Posted by $SOLID$ Necro The Gemini as previously stated is not the best cooler around (And not the worst) adding a second fan will help some of course as Slaymate suggested (He should know..he wrote an extensive review on it ) but a better cooler would not be a bad idea, especially if you see a "Quad" in your future someday.

After like 30 seconds of wPrime 1024M running, the core temperatures had jumped to like 56/54. Considering I'm basically OCing solely for the sake of benchmarking (15 minute kamikaze runs), it doesn't seem to be a huge issue. Lapping really did improve the Gemini II's performance though at stock.

Quote: I try to find kits that have timings of 5-5-5-15 or less with 2.1v or less, or as close to that as possible, kits that want 2.2v or more tend not to have much OC headroom in them or run very cool, but typically will still run just fine at reduced voltages if you relax the timings.

The 4Gb kit I use identifies itself as 5-5-5-12, 2.0v; the 2Gb kit is 5-5-5-15, 1.9v. Still there isn't much headroom in them.

Quote: EDIT: OK, you posted something before I finished my reply...8GB of ram? What the hell are you doing that requires that much? (Photoshop?) or is just a bragging thing, I have yet to see any games that realy needs that much!

1) Bragging

2) Incorrect assumption that the price of DDR2-800 was going to bottom out imminently, so I'd better stock up when I could get another 4Gb locally for amazing bargain price of 80.- without rebates. Since I have 6 now, getting 4 alone would be a drop backwards in principle.

I suspect the Patriot memory (one 2G Corsair set, one 4G Patriot set) is the weak link, because removing the Corsair sticks does not get me any extra headroom on timings. I'll have to wriggle under the Gemini II again to try swapping some more, I guess.

I got to agree with SOLID, what do you need 8GB of ram for. Unless your compiling some ultra complicated CAD drawing that requires hours or days to complete your just spinning your wheels.

I'm going to recommend spending a few more dollars on the ram and going with PC2 8500 DDR2 1066. It runs at 5-5-5-18 at 1066 but if your running it at 800 then you can run it at even faster timings.
Newegg.com - OCZ Reaper HPC 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 1066 (PC2 8500) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory - Desktop Memory

As for the GeminII, it's not a bad Cooler, when I initally tested it, there wasn't as much competition though. But it still work very good with (2) fans. When using (2) fans the GeminII actually cools your other components, namely your memory. Which can help you in your Quest.

Quote: Originally Posted by Slaymate I got to agree with SOLID, what do you need 8GB of ram for. Unless your compiling some ultra complicated CAD drawing that requires hours or days to complete your just spinning your wheels. I'm going to recommend spending a few more dollars on the ram and going with PC2 8500 DDR2 1066. It runs at 5-5-5-18 at 1066 but if your running it at 800 then you can run it at even faster timings. Newegg.com - OCZ Reaper HPC 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 1066 (PC2 8500) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory - Desktop Memory As for the GeminII, it's not a bad Cooler, when I initally tested it, there wasn't as much competition though. But it still work very good with (2) fans. When using (2) fans the GeminII actually cools your other components, namely your memory. Which can help you in your Quest.

Yeah..that is definately some nice ram there, and offers a bit more flexability for a moderate increase in cost. Ram (1066) like that can often reach up to 1200MHZ with the right timings and voltage, where alot of 800MHZ ram can crap out much above 900mhz and struggle to reach 1000MHZ range without using obscene voltage or weak ass timings. Unless you find some good micron D-9 of the right stepping, wich is getting pretty hard to find in the low end of the price range.

And back to that cooler, I think it's fine for a mid clocked Core 2, wether or not another 50MHZ is worth the cost of an upgrade is a strictly personal decision, I would think an OC'd Quad might struggle on it though (Anything but a top end cooler seems to struggle as it is, but that is not realy relavent to his situation or the topic at hand)

I myself would probably keep it and add the second fan, unless I found a cooler that's in that top ten for 40$ or less.

High end hardware is mega fun, but I realy get a big thrill by maximising my bang for the buck, I think you get that same feeling too Slay!

Well, I pulled the Patriot sticks, and the Corsair alone ran at the mainboard's default for the FSB setting for 3504MHz - 5-6-6-20. However, it didn't go much higher (I tried to get to 3.56GHz, and it stalled out, even at 6-7-7-21).

Incidentally, the timings buy you a total of <2 seconds on wPrime 1024M, and 120ms on 32M, compared with 6-7-7-24. :/

I'm continually baffled why Intel went with this mind-blowing complexity of "straps" and "dividers" to set memory speed-- presumably a seperate, asynchronous clock is the way to go. I wonder if it was an attempt to prevent the chipsets having too long of a shelf-life by limiting the memory-CPU pairings they supported. (i. e. you can't get 1333FSB and DDR2-533 support, or 1600FSB and DDR2-667)

The only things I really like about the Gemini II is 1) it cost me like three dollars after rebate and 2) it takes a silent 120mm fan. Just because the box is fast does not mean it has to be a banshee. (it's actually quieter than my stock-clocked S939 4600+)

I think you need to find out if it's your ram or the CPU that is holding you back, try dropping the CPU multi 1, and find out what ram speeds and timings you can get.

How much voltage were you running on the ram anyways? 2.2v is about the max safe for daily use, though 2.0-2.1v is probably even better for long term use. I have never used more then 2.3-2.4v for a few quick pi runs, and the gains are just marginal from my own experience, others have had more luck then I have with lots of volts, but your ram will not like it for long.

And yeah..NVIDA based boards are realy nice for tweeking your ram, picking your ram sped when it's unlinked can be handy, though you realy have to spend lots of time to find it's sweet spot, and usually the typical ram dividres such as 1:1 1 2:3 or 4:5 can do better.

And I don't think most intel chipsets support using 1T, wich adds a realy nice boost under 1000MHZ with tighter timings such as 4-4-4-12 (At least on 2x1GB kits, 2x2GB kits are much harder to get tight timings and high FSB)

Quote: Originally Posted by $SOLID$ Necro I think you need to find out if it's your ram or the CPU that is holding you back, try dropping the CPU multi 1, and find out what ram speeds and timings you can get.

I dialed the multiplier back to 6x, and at FSB=447, all four sticks would POST (at mainboard's "auto" timings of 5-6-6-21). It would hang after a couple minutes, but at 8x447 it wouldn't make it past a one-second glimpse of desktop. I'd argue perhaps both parts are near limit.

I wonder if part of me just crams all the RAM in because I don't have the anti-static package anymore, and am worried it will get ruined otherwise.

Quote: How much voltage were you running on the ram anyways? 2.2v is about the max safe for daily use, though 2.0-2.1v is probably even better for long term use. I have never used more then 2.3-2.4v for a few quick pi runs, and the gains are just marginal from my own experience, others have had more luck then I have with lots of volts, but your ram will not like it for long.

Normally "+0.2v", which used to produce 2.00-2.02v, but now it's showing 2.05. Maybe time to clear CMOS (It can get real weird in there-- I got it to a state where it would disregard my FSB setting, and wouldn't drop the voltage as CPU clock went down, dunno how). [Edit: Clearing CMOS and resetting the voltage to +0.2v seems to give me 2.02-2.03 with occasional dip to 2.00. I wonder if the usual 2.02 value was due to differences in the performance of the voltage regulator from a closed case's movement)

Quote: And I don't think most intel chipsets support using 1T, wich adds a realy nice boost under 1000MHZ with tighter timings such as 4-4-4-12 (At least on 2x1GB kits, 2x2GB kits are much harder to get tight timings and high FSB)

I remember 1T from the S939 days, and how it stopped working when you added more than two sticks of memory. I do recall that was one of the few knobs that really made a difference, but then the A64 was a very different beast when it came to RAM.

Honestly, I don't even need fully-asynch RAM, just one or two lower divisors, so I could keep the RAM nearer to 800 while I wailed on the FSB.

Seconded everything that Slaymate and Necro have said.

OCZ Reapers ftw....I got the el cheapo Reaper X sticks but they're still not half bad.

Quote: Originally Posted by Hak Foo I dialed the multiplier back to 6x, and at FSB=447, all four sticks would POST (at mainboard's "auto" timings of 5-6-6-21). It would hang after a couple minutes, but at 8x447 it wouldn't make it past a one-second glimpse of desktop. I'd argue perhaps both parts are near limit. I wonder if part of me just crams all the RAM in because I don't have the anti-static package anymore, and am worried it will get ruined otherwise. Normally "+0.2v", which used to produce 2.00-2.02v, but now it's showing 2.05. Maybe time to clear CMOS (It can get real weird in there-- I got it to a state where it would disregard my FSB setting, and wouldn't drop the voltage as CPU clock went down, dunno how). [Edit: Clearing CMOS and resetting the voltage to +0.2v seems to give me 2.02-2.03 with occasional dip to 2.00. I wonder if the usual 2.02 value was due to differences in the performance of the voltage regulator from a closed case's movement) I remember 1T from the S939 days, and how it stopped working when you added more than two sticks of memory. I do recall that was one of the few knobs that really made a difference, but then the A64 was a very different beast when it came to RAM. Honestly, I don't even need fully-asynch RAM, just one or two lower divisors, so I could keep the RAM nearer to 800 while I wailed on the FSB.

I might argue that CPU has more room in it, it depends on a few things...ever look to see what "Core Temp" tells you your "Default VID" is (This is the voltage the cpu will get when left in auto, the lower the better!)

I had a C2D 2.4GHZ E6600 that had a def vid of 1.2v (Wich is pretty much close to as low as it gets) and was uber stable at 3.6GHZ, 99% stable at 3.8GHZ (Summer heat would make it crash) and 1MB Pi benchable to nearly 4.1ghz when using "Sweet Air" (Cold winter air ducted to the cooler)

On the other hand..I have a 1.8GHZ E4300 that had a default VID of an ugly 1.325 (I think thats the highest it goes) and it sucked major ass OC wise, 3GHZ was stable all day, 3.2-3.4GHZ benchable with cold air and megavolts.

Your CPU is a newer core, and tends to be a better OC'er than my E6600, but that def VID is often very revealing in general about it's capabilities, the lower it is, the beter the tend to OC without juicing the CPU volts, and when you do...they rock!

As far as your ram goes...5-6-6-7 and 2t with 2v, that should hit DDR 1000 (FSB 250) Speeds as long as your running it in the 2 stick configuration.

I have used OLD crap OCZ gold that was rated for DDR667 at 5-4-4-4-12 at up to DDR 940 with 5-5-5-15 with 2.1v, not dissing ya, but I think it's just a lack of tuning skills here, or it could be board related possibly too, I used the 680i chipset, though I think it ran about the same on my 975x chipset.

And not having you ram static bags handy anymore? improvise a bit and make some new ones out of an old vid card or mobo bag (Etc..) Scissors and tape are all ya need there! just put them in a box to make sure they don't go anywhere.

OH..and yes..the strap crap from intel sucks...it does funky things that are too detailed to get into here ATM, another bigg isue was one of the ram settings you can't change on most Intel boards, it will read from the ram SPD, and lock it in there depending on what FSB speed you set, I think its TRFC or something...it alwasy wants to run it too tight IMO, and even programs like Mem Set won't let you change it...

It might set it at 20 at 200FSB and leave it there, so when you get to around 240-250FSB, it should be loosened up to around 30, but without being able to change it in the bios or in windows, it literaly chokes your max ram speed.

Thats where the 680i chipset with its "Unlinked" mode, or using a different memory divider can come into play.

If you the memory divider in auto with DDR 800, at the stock settings of 200FSB Bios, it may set that TRFC to 30, wich is great. It might let you hit DDR900+ speeds, wich is 225FSB...but the part that sucks, is it leaves lots of CPU speed on the table!

I am not sure what your stock multi is..is it 8X? 3500MHZ with 447 FSB is 223 Bios.

Getting to say 3.8GHZ would require 475FSB with a 8x multi would give you DDR 950 speeds, wich may or may not be possible. Your Bios FSB would be 237.

The problem is..you are probably trying to use a divider (2:3?) wich at the stock speed of your CPU (200FSB) would probably give you a ram speed of DDR667...here is the bitch...that damn TRFC setting will now drop to something rediculous like 18! Good luck clocking up your ram with 18 TRFC

CPUZ will show you what it's running, post a pic of the ram (Both SPD and Ram speed) and we can go from there...

I know this is a little thick and confusing..drove me absolutely buggy till I figured it out, this is why "Strap" settings are so hard to figure out, they change **** based on your Ram's pre programed "SPD" settings FSB speed, and ram ratios!

I may not be explaining this the best way..this guide may help break it down for ya!

FSB Strap for noobs. - XtremeSystems Forums

Quote: Originally Posted by $SOLID$ Necro Newegg.com - mushkin 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory - Desktop Memory I would bet it matches or beats the ADATA timings with similar voltage. I realy like this OCZ reaper kit for $110 that can run 4-4-4-15 with 2.1v, and has a 25$ rebate Newegg.com - OCZ Reaper HPC Edition 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory - Desktop Memory EDIT: OK, you posted something before I finished my reply...8GB of ram? What the hell are you doing that requires that much? (Photoshop?) or is just a bragging thing, I have yet to see any games that realy needs that much!

I'm surprised that you didn't see this deals.

This 4GB kit is newer has a better heatsink, and looks even cooler, for $5 More

Which I just may end up with for that one board I recently received.

But the different sticks is definitely holding you back.

and for 8GB kit

This ones only $210

Quote: Originally Posted by Slaymate I got to agree with SOLID, what do you need 8GB of ram for. Unless your compiling some ultra complicated CAD drawing that requires hours or days to complete your just spinning your wheels. I'm going to recommend spending a few more dollars on the ram and going with PC2 8500 DDR2 1066. It runs at 5-5-5-18 at 1066 but if your running it at 800 then you can run it at even faster timings. Newegg.com - OCZ Reaper HPC 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 1066 (PC2 8500) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory - Desktop Memory

that's the exact set of RAM I just ordered for my new build, coupled with an e8400 and Gigabyte P35-S3G.

Going to need some OC help. I can build and run just fine ... even know a bit about modding ... but have limited experience OC-ing (my old Prescott wouldn't budge on the Intel 875 board.)

-godling

Quote: Originally Posted by godling that's the exact set of RAM I just ordered for my new build, coupled with an e8400 and Gigabyte P35-S3G. Going to need some OC help. I can build and run just fine ... even know a bit about modding ... but have limited experience OC-ing (my old Prescott wouldn't budge on the Intel 875 board.) -godling

That's the exact set of RAM I'm running at the moment. It's OK, looks good, but won't overclock past 1050mhz regardless or what timings/voltage I use, which is a bit disappointing. Still, it's a good cheap 4GB kit, unlike the Patriot kit I got the other day which won't boot at its rated timings at all....you've got to be careful when buying cheap memory.

I have (2) sets of 2x1GB of Patriot Extreme PC2 9200 and they both run at 1150 5-5-5-12 no problem. I haven't tried to overclock them as they kick assss pretty good as is. But to be truthful the improvement over PC2 8500 ram was minimal. I don't see a difference between them at all in regular useage, and the effect in Benchies is small also. To be perfectly honest I usually underclock my ram and just run it at 1066 to reduce heat.

Plus memory latencies and speed don't make as big of an impact as they use to with regular SDram or DDR. You'll get more of a performance boost with sheer cpu power increasing your memory bandwidth than you will with slightly faster latencies. Faster latencies are only good for an extra few (as in few) points or milliseconds. If that's all you need to barely break a record then remember the next guy can probably push his a little harder still also.

While I'm still recommending the PC2 8500, I think you'll get the best improvement by upgrading the GeminII to a Thermalright Ultra 120 Extreme and buying a Silverstone FM121 variable speed fan. You can set the fan to 800 rpm speed for quiet computing with a mild OC or you can set it to high and 100+cfm for extreme air overclocking. That's going to give you your best jump in scores and performance. Even at 800 or 1066 MHz ram speeds.