Howdy folks,

I have been needing a new digital camera for some time now, and now that we've survived the holidays with some cash intact, I have been shopping more seriously.

My older Olympus D-510 zoom has been a trusty companion, but last year I had an assignment to cover the Interbike trade show for Bike Rod & Kustom...and was disappointed with my results. The main issue seemed to be that when shooting objects like bicycles with so many depths, the autofocus would invariably choose the wrong focus point and the picture came out blurred. This wasn't easy to tell with the small LCD screen on the Olympus, and I lost the opportunity for a lot of shots, had I known, I could've taken over. Sad to say, out of hundreds of shots, only dozens were usable.

I realized then that I had to invest in better gear, and the answer in my research seemed to be a digital SLR of at least 8MP. The SLR is more precise in focus point, or can be manually focused for more control...that is, once I learn how to use the darn thang. Both of these cameras are also very fast, which is needed for covering cycling events with action. Macro capability is also a must, for PC modding and product shots for Dragonmodz. At least 8MP resolution is necessary for poster or calendar quality shots for BR&K, and with the recent promotion to reviewer here at PimpRig...the time is now.

After reading a lot of reviews, shopping prices and features, I've narrowed it down to the following choices:

• Canon Rebel XT (D350)
• Canon EOS 20D

Now, either cam has the required specs, and according to reviews, picture quality is nearly identical (and I'm not enough of a camera geex0r to tell the difference). The main difference is the price, the size of the LCD and the size of the camera body.

Size does matter...

I'm a big guy with correspondingly big hands, and the Rebel XT has been called a small camera, even compared to others in its class. This can really make a difference in the ability to keep the camera stable for getting good shots, and also for comfort when using it over longer sessions. I like the idea of having the 20D's larger LCD for previewing, but I'm still torn over whether these small gripes are worth the difference in price. Cost is not all the issue, but if I went with the less expensive cam, I would spend the difference on accessories, such as larger and faster flash media, extra lenses, bag, etc...

What I am asking for is advice on whether it would be better to get the lesser cam with a boatload of extra goodies, or invest in the better cam, and add accessories as I need and can afford them. I am also open to suggestions on other suitable cameras, but nothing less than an SLR of 8MP or greater. Please don't try to convince me that an SLR is too much camera for me...I already know that. This is an investment for me, and I want something to grow into as I won't be upgrading for many years to come.

Thanks!

Do me a favor and check out the Panasonic Lumix DMC-FZ5 and FZ30. The 30 wasn't available when I bought but didn't want to wait so I went with the 5. The FZ30 can be had for under 5 bones. Just check the specs against the camera's you are looking at.

Thanks BA.
Although the specs are similar, the Panasonic doesn't claim to be an SLR. I'd really prefer to be able to change lenses, especially for macro shots. As for the price....I have a friend in the biz, so I'm more interested in getting the features I'd like than a bargain. Honestly, if it wasn't for that, I'd be looking at the Panasonic much closer.

What did you think of the Canons, price aside?

OK, my bad. I didn't catch the SLR info on your first post. Can I ask why you want to change lenses? What I mean is, what ability do you want your camera to have? If it is something you need then the 20D would get my nod.

Don't do the 20D. For what you want, it would be useless. Completely useless.

I would say not to do the Digital Rebel either. For what you need, it'd be overkill.

Of course, I went back and read the rest of your post where you said not to convince you you don't need it, but..

If you're convinced about doing it, go with the Digital Rebel XT.

You have to remember though that you don't preview with the LCD screen, it's kinda useless except to review basic composition and exposure data, you can't tell focus at all after you take the shot. The viewfinder is pretty small and not clear to get precise focusing in manual mode, and I'm not a fan of the focusing of the lens that comes with the kit.

And you'll get better depth of field in macro with a digicam so that focusing won't be as important.

Well, the one thing an SLR is supposed to do is give you an actual view through the lens of your composition. Yeah, it may be more than I can fully utilize at this time, but it's what the pros use, and I want the tools to learn with. Since photo-documentation has become my main avocation, I'm even considering taking some classes in photography. Scary, eh?

Yeah, I know you get the view through the lens with an SLR. I own the Digital Rebel XT with a Canon 28-135 mm IS f/3.5-5.6 lens. The problem is, with the little viewfinder it's not really good to tell if you've got a precise focus. While it'd be fine for web use, if you want to utilize all 8 megapixels it gets wasted.

EDIT: If you have specific questions about the Digital Rebel XT, feel free to PM or AIM. I have limited experience using the 20D, but no where near enough to fully field questions, but I could try.

Thanks jcarkeys,
I read a similar review that stated the same thing about the Rebel XT...small viewfinder, nearly useless. That is one reason I'm looking at the 20D. I don't actually know how much it will be through my buddy, so it may yet come down to price. If I do go with the Rebel XT, you'd recommend buying it w/o lens, and get an upgrade lens?

Quote: Originally Posted by Wordbiker The main issue seemed to be that when shooting objects like bicycles with so many depths, the autofocus would invariably choose the wrong focus point and the picture came out blurred.

Wordbiker,

I've been an avid 35mm photographer since the late 60's. I own a boat load of 35 mm stuff including a complete Pentax system. I bought the Canon Digital Elf when they first came out for portability and computer use reasons, but up to recently wouldn't consider a complete switchover to digital. I didn't believe the image quality would satisfy me.

I did a lot of research in the last year or so, and finally put up the cash and purchased an EOS 20D with three lenses, including a macro lens. I must say I am astounded at what this critter can do. In fact.... I am so amazed that most of the 35mm stuff (except for items that are unique, collectable or able to be adapted to use with the EOS 20D) will be seeing the eBay auction block.

I think you need to see if you can rent or borrow the 20D. If you're on the fence it's a good way to avoid a costly mistake.

As far as the autofocus problem goes, I have never been a fan of autofocus and how easily it can be tricked (water, glass, tree branches) .......it's the one reason I stayed with my late 70's Pentax system. (Pentax ME Super and LX )

But the solution for your depth problem, (easily achieved with a good digital SLR) would be to boost the ISO rating so that your camera would be shooting at a very small aperture in the lower light levels you working under. The smaller aperture would increase your depth of field, and the focus tolerance. You wouldn't have to worry about the depth levels and have pinpoint focus between them. You could spend more time on composition and not worry about depth of field problems. Understanding how to use depth of field and manipulate it with shutter speed will help you enormously.

The 20D is well known for being able to ramp up the ISO setting without increasing the "digital noise" that sometimes results with this procedure. This will be a valuable tool for you.


Also, it's a very good time to purchase the 20D .. there is a great rebate ; 100 bucks on the camera and smaller amounts on selected lenses including the that macro. But the beauty of the rebate program is that if you buy two lenses, the $100 bucks doubles; 3 lenses, it triples.
I am getting a rebate of $380 total.

Thank you for posting Prime-evil,

I did read about how good Santa was to you and noted that you were the guy to ask about the 20D.

As with audio equipment, I have never been that picky about my camera equipment. Stock stuff sounds/looks fine to me, but after getting involved more as a reviewer/reporter, I can see the benefits of not only having good gear, but knowing how to use it.

I talked with jcarkeys for a while last night in IM (thanks bro, +rep!) and have pretty much decided on the 20D. Yes, it's way more camera than I even know what to do with, but as involved as I currently am with photography (out of necessity), I look at it the same as investing in computer hardware: Buying better gear makes it last longer before needing an upgrade. I also see how some of the features offered with the 20D can be useful to me right away, such as the larger body size. Fortunately for me, cameras at this range still have sophisticated automatic settings that I can use while I learn more about the advanced settings. I can still use it in a point-and-shoot default mode and get good results, according to the text and personal reviews I've encountered.

Given that I am getting this camera through my LAN-promotion partner, photographer of my wedding and all around very best geek friend at his wholesale cost...I don't see how I can go wrong, although it still does depend on what the actual cost is as I don't yet have that info. He up until recently owned a PC repair storefront, but went back to operating out of his home, retaining all of his wholesale vendors. He is doing me a huge favor by offering to allow me this purchase, and only because we are such good friends, so please folks...don't ask if I can "get you a deal" . I don't wish to take advantage of friends in the business of retailing....and besides, I know he's gonna work me to buy him lunches for long enough as it is...

I'll be meeting him for lunch today to place my order, so I'll post what I finally decide on later tonight. I could also use some advice on how to get started once I get the gear. Thanks again for all of you that gave your much appreciated and respected input.

Erik "Wordbiker" Suttles

If you have the cash to invest I've found that it never hurts to buy more than you need. In the end a camera is a tool, just like any other and you don't short-change yourself when it comes to tools. It always shows in the end product.

A semi-pro 20D should serve your purposes for a long time. In addition to better image control, it's more ruggedly built than the Rebel. As your needs grow and you find you need to move up (or higher MP cameras become more affordable) it will serve as a great second body.

Canon is a well respected name in optics and is a definate leader in digital photography. I long waited for a Pentax digital SLR and was "rewarded" for my long wait with a meager 6 and change megapixel offering. As much as I liked Pentax optics, if they can't step up, they gotta get out.

Not only is Canon one of the number one names in digital imaging, but they are tops in customer service. I've not only been using their camera, but scanners and a large format printer for at least 4 years. (The interaction between the three products is seemless.) I've had very few problems, and the service dept is excellent. The few issues I've had were resolved quickly and without the aid of a translator. I've seen several mags publish this very fact that I've learned in person.

Wow! I sound like a commercial! HA! Oh well.... all true. Gotta give credit where credit is due........
If I can be of help again, feel free!

Quote: Canon is a well respected name in optics and is a definate leader in digital photography. I long waited for a Pentax digital SLR and was "rewarded" for my long wait with a meager 6 and change megapixel offering. As much as I liked Pentax optics, if they can't step up, they gotta get out.

I know how you feel Prime Evil... I used to own a K1000, MX & Super A with a load of primes & a couple
of zooms... (I still own an MZ-5n, three primes & two zooms, for slides)... Ever since I bought a (now
slightly old... ) Olympus compact digicam, the Pentaxes stayed in the closet... well, apart from the
mentioned MZ-5n for slideshooting...

So... I sold all the manual stuff since I didn't use it no more, digital is so much more fun to me plus it is
much more convienient.. I kept the AF stuff not only for the slides but hoping Pentax would release a digital body I could use the AF lenses on...

Nowadays I'm not sure if I'll ever buy that body...

What I do want to buy some day is a more advanced digital camera with the following features;
- 28~105mm zoom or equivalent, preferrably a decent fast one (this range is all I use..)
- anti shake system
- full manual control over exposure
- advanced flash system & advanced external flash capability
- fast AF, low shutter lag
- more pixels (of course..lol..)

All in all a more "advanced" digicam, don't need interchangable lenses nor does it need to be
a true reflex or compact...

Oh well... maybe next year..

TDR

Quote: Originally Posted by The Dragon Reborn I know how you feel Prime Evil... I used to own a K1000, MX & Super A with a load of primes & a couple of zooms... (I still own an MZ-5n, three primes & two zooms, for slides)... Ever since I bought a (now slightly old... ) Olympus compact digicam, the Pentaxes stayed in the closet... well, apart from the mentioned MZ-5n for slideshooting... TDR

It was a double shame that the digital Pentax fell short on resolution since it is able to use most of the "K" mount lenses...... And all the screw mounts are easily adaped to the "K" losing only some features in convenience. To develop such a camera, actually two of them, in a less than 6MP range is very strange.

The only thing that saved my budget (and might help you) is that the Pentax K lenses are very desired (still fetching a very good buck) by people that switched over to the digital Pentax and are trying to fill in their system with the older lenses or feel that the older lenses have better optics and casings.

Thanks fot the heads-up, Prime-Evil! This thread just shows why it is a good thing to join PimpRig...
I mean.. it is hard to find any place on the 'Net where 'peeps just try to have a good time enjoying their
hobby, respect eachother & try to help eachother... it is, sadly, a rare commodity these days...

Anyhow... I'll be on the lookout for good offers... afterall... digital projectors become cheaper & cheaper...
Might be a good replacent for my thrusty good 'ol Leica slide projector...

Just checked dpreview.com.... I guess I'm a candidate for a Konica/Minolta, Kodak, Panasonic or Sony...

TDR



ps... how do you "rep" somebody here? I found your answers in this theard (& many more) worthy of
a 'rep increase... could any Mod or Admin PM on this?

Quote: Originally Posted by The Dragon Reborn ps... how do you "rep" somebody here? I found your answers in this theard (& many more) worthy of a 'rep increase... could any Mod or Admin PM on this?

Glad I could help. I came here to learn about computers, but cameras I have down, so I can share in this area.

Extreme left hand corner of the thread "box" that you're reading has a little square with a check and an "x" in it. Click there and a pop up will walk you through the rest. Thanks in advance if ones coming my way!
Hope I don't sound too presumptuous....

No you don't... you've been very helpful!!!
(found it..btw..)...

PimpRig just Rocks!!!, imho...

TDR

Uuuurgh!

I said I would update this thread once I made a decision.....but there have been issues.

The main one is that I have excellent taste in camera equipment, so much so that every vendor my buddy checked on was out of the 20D.
He can still get the Rebel XT at a great price, or I can try and find a deal on one by myself...or wait til the end of the month when the vendors get their stock replenished after the Christmas rush and get the 20D. It sure sucks to wait, but I think it would suck worse to not wait and be stuck with something less than what I set out to get. *sigh*

I'll spend some time looking around and gathering more info. I have tried to be sensible and have looked at a few alternatives. One is this Olympus Evolt E-500 8.0MP that I saw at the New Year's party we went to. It sure looked like a nice camera, and the kit comes with two lenses. I asked my nerd buddy about Olympus and he said "middle-of-the-road"...so I'll keep looking.

BA, a friend of mine just bought that Panasonic Lumix FZ30, and he loves it. He's a photo buff too, and shopped for a long time before selecting that one, so I am sure it's a good one. Only thing is, even he said that the Canon was a better cam. He prefers film cameras, so he didn't want to spend much on a digital.

Froogle...here I come!

Yeah, money was an issue when I was purchasing. I wanted something that could give me great close up shots for reviews, and still be able to zoom into the ****pit at NASCAR races. I'm pretty happy with my Z5.

Quote: Originally Posted by BigAkita Yeah, money was an issue when I was purchasing. I wanted something that could give me great close up shots for reviews, and still be able to zoom into the ****pit at NASCAR races. I'm pretty happy with my Z5.

What NASCAR races do you go to BA?

My friend has a D20 hes a huge photographer. He spent alot and got all the extras and what not. Some of the shots he gets are amazing.

Quote: Originally Posted by Wordbiker Uuuurgh! I said I would update this thread once I made a decision.....but there have been issues. The main one is that I have excellent taste in camera equipment, so much so that every vendor my buddy checked on was out of the 20D. He can still get the Rebel XT at a great price, or I can try and find a deal on one by myself...or wait til the end of the month when the vendors get their stock replenished after the Christmas rush and get the 20D. It sure sucks to wait, but I think it would suck worse to not wait and be stuck with something less than what I set out to get. *sigh* I'll spend some time looking around and gathering more info. I have tried to be sensible and have looked at a few alternatives. One is this Olympus Evolt E-500 8.0MP that I saw at the New Year's party we went to. It sure looked like a nice camera, and the kit comes with two lenses. I asked my nerd buddy about Olympus and he said "middle-of-the-road"...so I'll keep looking. BA, a friend of mine just bought that Panasonic Lumix FZ30, and he loves it. He's a photo buff too, and shopped for a long time before selecting that one, so I am sure it's a good one. Only thing is, even he said that the Canon was a better cam. He prefers film cameras, so he didn't want to spend much on a digital. Froogle...here I come!

I feel your pain, I have been in this position many times.

However, I checked Newegg and Costco and they still have them in stock. At the time I purchased, of all the more reputable companies, they were giving the best deal, and they are authorized dealers.

A lot of resellers are not authorized dealers and Canon is very strict about their rebates. I Froogled as well and learned that some of the best prices were offered by shops that although they advertised the rebate and offered the form, were not really authorized by Canon to do so. Had I purchased from them I would have lost money in the long run. See their site for details.
www.canonusa.com

Canon will gladly check to see if your proposed vendor is authorized. Thye will even send you a list of many online dealers. I spent a lot of time with them on this....Newegg came up as non-authorized until I gave their address. (Newegg is listed under another name, same address) Newegg also has a 6 month no payments no interest plan if that helps.

I don't usually make a big deal over rebates, but this is a good program. I racked up $380 bucks.

As for another camera, my brother has an Olympus, I'm sure it's that very same one . He likes it, but he uses the Canon 20D where he works (company owned). We had a chance to try them out at my house side by side, the Canon won hands down. The Olympus falls victim to a bit of "noise" under low light conditions. He bought the Olympus for himself, only because it was cheaper, but he's able to borrow the Canon when he really gets particular about a shoot. He's been a graphic artist by trade for about 25 years.

I hate to say it, but if you're that close I'd wait. I've compromised in making purchases before and have always regretted it. I'm inclined to say this would be a similar situation. Better to wait if you have to. In fact, I was supposed to buy this camera more than 9 months ago, but I was faced with the same roadblock so I waited. I am so glad I did.

Good luck!