I was thinking about purchasing this kit for my dually 1900 as its currently running too hot for comfort (56C) Do I need a heftier pump (Eheim 1046) than what comes with the kit for cooling 2 cpus? I'm not sure yet if Im gonna get coolers for other components or not yet. Maybe the geforce4 cooler. this rig wont be overclocked as this chipset is a poor OC'er and I am going for stability here, only reason im going with water is its in a poor airflow mid tower now and when im done with my current case project it will be in an even smaller mid tower with uncertain cooling properties and I dont want a lot of holes in the case (will spoil the effect of the mod)

I don't think the pump would be as much a problem with two AMD procs as much as heat dispersion would be. I have never used the kit so I couldn't tell you positively, but looking over their kits I'm not sure the radiator or reservoir are up to par for two CPUs.

I definitely think watercooling is a solution for you, but why not try to piece your own kit together? There are a lot of water cooled members on this site and we'd be glad to help. I put my kit together myself, but may be a little bigger than what you would like.

I've considered it, but i must admit im a little scared and space is an issue. I understand the principles of watercooling, i just have no practical experience and am afraid id never make my own setup fit. There are a couple of other mods in this case that will be taking up some room as well too heh

I have read good things about this kit so was considering it, but as I planned out all the pieces Id want for it im seeing an excess of $450.00!! Ouch, those innovatek blocks are like 100 dollars heh. This project is gonna kill me financially I think, but its a labor of love and well worth it.

If you think you can help me put together a good water setup in a relatively small space id love to hear your ideas.

I love this topic, always. Kits are cool if your not really sure what you need, and the Innovatech gear is right up there with Danger Den, Swiftech, and Aqua-Computer. But....

First off, a duelly setup isn't standard fair and should be aproached a little different. The heat from the first proc will raise your water temp and can reduce it's ability to properly cool the second.

1. Unless, the water temp is so cool to begin with that it is still effective for the second one. (Involves using a peltier powered chiller or something similar).

2. You set up multiple loops with independant pumps from a single reservoir, (usually submersible), and use something like a bong cooler with the reservoir. This doesn't make for a very portable system though.

3. Or use the smaller 1/4 setups like Koolance gear with a second radiator like the Black Ice models (3/8" radiators, everything else 1/4" and an Ehiem 1048 is fine).

4. Probably the easiest and simplest, go BIG with 1/2" and a high volumn pump. For high volumn systems the Danger Den and Swiftech set-ups are probably king. Use nothing smaller then the Big Ehiem 1250.

The problem with useing an Ehiem 1046 is that it doesn't have the "head" of the bigger pumps. You see, the ratings for volumn are missleading as they assume no static pressure. But the ratings for "head" ( how high up the pump can push water) is a better measure of how a pump will perform. So you will need a stronger pump then the 1048 to effectifly move the total volumn of water through a more involved system, (longer water line, more fittings, extra radiators, etc....).

So yes, BA is correct that you should approach this as a total design that will match what you need. Get an idea of how portable you want to be, how much you are willing to spend, how compact it needs to be, (cramped case ? ), etc. and get back with us here.

BTW abys, if you are looking at Sharka-whatever, Don't, they are way over priced on Innovatec gear. Go check HighSpeedPC.

I have been thinking some more and I think you can swing it like this;
Reservoir, Danger-Dens $25


Pump, Ehiem 1250 $70


Water-Blocks, Danger-Den Maze-3 (1/2") $40 each from Cooltechnica



Radiator, Black-Ice Evo REV2 1/2" $66


This is a high volume solution and You can order all from Cooltechnica.
Total minus shipping, miscelanious hardware, and tubing, $240 +

Is the black ice extreme radiator enough for a dually setup you think?

6 3/8 high x 6 3/4 wide is the maximum size of the radiator that will fit. that radiator will fit it seems, and give me about an inch to spare for tubing along sides if need be.

This is the area right beneath my lower most drive bay and i can go back about 8 3/4 inch deep before i hit my vid card.

This case has 4 external 5 1/4 drive bays, and 2 external 3 1/2 bays. i removed the internal bays

The 2 3 1/2 bays sit directly above the aforementioned area, and i could elminate those if i needed the space pretty easily, OR i could cough up 1 or possibly 2 of the 5 1/4 bays. i thought about making a homemade resorvoir that could fit in those 2 lower bays, if i take up both of them i can remove the bays and go the whole width of the case with a resorvoir and it would be right above the radiator

case dimensions are 7 3/4 wide
16 1/8 tall
16 1/2 deep

Id need to stay under $400 for the whole deal, but im more concerned with quality, as ive invested a lot of cash into this rig and want to do it the right way. i just priced a bunch of stuff at danger den and seems i might be able to stay under $300, what do ya think?

I need
Waterblocks x 2
Pump
Tubing
GPU Cooler
Radiator
Reservoir
Fan (s)
Flow meter (need one that allows for digital readout if possible)


Am I forgetting anything? I can get water wetter here in town

Doh you posted while i was writing heh

I think that the price is right at Cooltechnica, ask around, I have only ordered from them once and it was just a $26 peltier. So get a feel for the company before you throw your card number at them.

The gear errs on the side of over-kill and has a good rep, BA uses the Maze3.

There are others of possibly higher quality, but you will pay. Two Innovatech Innovacool3 blocks will run you $150 and only handle up to 3/8" ID tubing.


A pair of swiftech MCW-462's in 1/2" are an even $102 and are a reasonable alternative to the Maze3, (DW swears by them).


And the actual performance difference will be un-noticable. You can order the Maze3s with copper tops instead of the lucite if your worried about their durability. My favorite Reservoir is the Innovatech Tank-o-matic but it is limited to 3/8" ID tubing.

Well, thats about the best I have at this point.

Im leaning towards a possible custom reservoir to slip into a drive bay (or 2). Any reason why this wouldnt be feasible? im thinking im gonna need a larger volume reservoir than normal for a dually setup, it that true?

also, should i run my tubing in serial or parallel?

*edit* hmm...seems cooltechnica has a resellerratings.com rating of 9.0! thats pretty awesome, even tho they havent had many reviews

Well, I have tried using "Y" fittings and splitting the water flow, but I didn't like it, I lost too much water flow and performance droped. The setup above is a high volume rig with 1/2" lines and will handle the heat fine.

As far as reservoirs go, there is nothing wrong with building your own, but understand that in a closed loop system, (not submesible pump), the reservoir doesn't help with the cooling, it only helps you fill easily, and if well designed, it will eliminate air bubbels. All the size of a sreservoir will do is delay how long it takes the system to reach maximum operating temperature. In fact, the Swiftech setup has no reservoir at all and uses a series of valves for filling and bleeding the system

You see, water blocks don't cool, nor do pumps, or reservoirs. Radiators do the cooling in closed loop systems. So if you think you will have a heat problem then add a second radiator to the system, one after each water block.

But if you think you want to do this, then go with a much smaller 1/4" setup and the 3/8" Mini-Black-Ice radiators that use 80mm fans. For water blocks, you can get Koolance blocks, or the Swiftech MCW-372. There is a company in Germany that builds some sweat gear and HighspeedPC is trying to become a distributer. This equipment is also 1/4" to 3/8" stuff and really looks good, here is a link to
Aqua-Computer but for us here in the states, you have to pay with Bank Transfers to order directly from them.

I have a very small all-copper radiator that uses 80mm fans that I got from Infinipro, but their site is down, and I would suspect that they are no longer in business. I don't know where you could still get the radiators from, but I am sure someone was making them for Infinipro.

Other then this info, the only other real solid alternative involves the purchase of a third CPU water block, a Peltier (TEC), a Good HSF that will mount to the Mobo, and a dedicated PSU. Your talking approximately $200 more in gear, but you will only need the one radiator and a 3/8" setup, Ehiem 1048, and a 1/2" radiator.

I hope I don't confuse you, whenever possible, I like to have the radiator run one size larger then the rest of the system. That way the water spends a little more time in there cooling off because of the increased volume inside.

If you want info about the chiller, let me know, I will explain it too you further. (letting ALL my secrets out )

Something you may want to think about is going external with the radiator and reservoir. I did that with mine because I knew it would not be following me to any lan parties. That way I was able to get a huge radiator, put two 120mm on it to help with the cooling, and got a big reservoir. Everything tucks in nicely behind and under my computer stand and it keeps the insides neat since I only have the 2 tubes running in from the back of the computer.

I have a huge case, but when you start putting in extra power supplies, lights, fans, etc... it fills up pretty quick.

This rig is gonna be fairly heavy because of the building materials + components but an entirely internal system is a MUST as it needs to be portable (this is a SMP frag box) even though i dont move it often, when i do i want it to be fairly easy

I appreciate the thought tho BA, but it just wont work for this box. now if i ever get my rackmount setup built, i will be building an external setup for it hehe (I have the rack and a rack mountable SMC 10 megabit 32 port switch but nothing else LOL)

Abys, if you want to stay light and if your not going to OC the system, a 1/4" setup with duel radiators may be the ticket.

Here'a a list of components;

Radiators, two Black-Ice Micro 80mm radiators, $88 from Cooltecnica.


Water-blocks, two CPU2000 Blocks from Infotech, $80


or

Two Swiftech MCW-372 blocks at $72 from Cooltechnica


An Ehiem 1048 from Cooltechnica at $57

And the Tank-o-matic reservoir from

HighSpeedPC at $60 when they get back in stock. You will need some adapters from 8mm to 6mm (1/4") or you can order some 6mm hose barbs from Europe. I can help you locate them.


That would bring the rough total to about $277 with the Swiftech blocks and you will still need two 80mm fans, tubing from the hardware store, shipping, etc.

You can bet that you will hit close to $330 in all reality if you have to order from multiple sources.

Another option is to order the two CPU blocks, a GPU block, Radiator and Reservoir from Aqua-Computer at about 234 Euros, or about $230 US. Keep in mind that this is a 3/8" equivelent setup and you still need a pump and fans. The fans require a little mod work on your part as the radiator doesn't come with mounting locations. And if you can stand to wait, and I have no idea how long, HighSpeedPC is trying to become a distributor for these guys.

All in all, either the Swiftech setup I just mentioned, or the Denger-Den stuff from above are both good possibles for you to consider. And this last entry for Aqua-Computer's gear is the first time I have included a GPU block in the figures.

I know this isn't much info to look over, but you have the links and I can answer specific questions later, Hola

why change from the Eheim 1250 to 1048 when using 2 smaller radiators instead of 1? not challenging your choice, just curious why =)

Also, is there a maximum distance my radiator can be from the blocks? if both are in the front of the case and i run first radiator after 1st cpu socket and then 2nd radiator after 2nd cpu socket, can both radiators be in the front of case? or will i want to mount one up front and one in the rear?

also, can i paint a water block? id consider the swiftechs if they werent so damn ugly, i hate that blue heh

as for the tankomatic, frozencpu has them as well, for about the same price

thanks for all your help man. i feel like such a noob haha

On the Pumps;
It is true that having two radiators will increase the "head" that you will need, but also with those two we are talking about a 1/4" system so the 1048 should be plenty.

Let me give you a few basics so that you can work out different ideas with the overall setup;

There are basicly three ways to configure your setup with reguards to radiators.
1. You can set ip up before the CPU water block as an intake to get fresh air for the best cooling. Problem is that the warm air after the cooling gets dumped into the case which works against your overall cooling efforts.

2. You can place it after the water blocks as an exhaust in the rear or top, this removes the heat from the system as fast as possible and is the second best solution.

3. You can externalize the mount so that it is completely outside, or duct the radiator so that the air is both fresh, and isn't part of the general case cooling configuration. This is the best solution, but not always easy to do depending on your case and equipment.

Another issue is the order of your water blocks or the components that you are water cooling. The greater the difference in the water temp and the component being cooled, the greater the cooling effect. Therefore, if you cool a CPU first and raise the water temp up to, or close to the temp of the next item to be cooled, you will get very little cooling effect on the later components. So you want the water to go to the coolest component first and progress through to the hottest component last. This way you get reasonable cooling all the way through the system.

A pump that is too powerfull for the system will be inefficient because there is a limit to how fast you can pump coolant through any given setup. If a pump is inefficient then the excess energy will be transfered to the coolant as additional heat so you should avoid overkill with your pump selection.

I used to recommend a simple mixture of distilled water and antifreeze for coolant but I have found that this isn't neccessarily the best selection. It will do a reasonable job but it will lower the actual thermal transfer properties of the water and increase the viscosity or "thickness" of the fluid slowing down your flow rate. A solution of windshield washer fluid that is free of additives, (the simple basic stuff), is basicly just distilled water and glycol. Add a small amount, (very small), of Red Line water wetter, (which is a coolant addative that resists corrosion and decreases viscosity), will give you a very "slick" fast flowing solution that has good cooling properties and will not degrade your tubing as fast as an anti-freeze mix.

Stay tuned for more water cooling goodness

I am slowly "testing the waters" so to speak, with the possibility of water cooling my next rig. (like in a year when the wife lets me build it) and i had a question regarding the "Tank-o-matic" and resivoirs in general.

The black and clear resivoirs they show on highspeedpc.com seem to be TINY, like s m a l l .

where as the tank-o-matic appears to be double their size. My question is, how much water is enough?

and the other thing...

which part of the tank-o-"matic" is automatic?

i dont get it...

Ok, maybe this is a stupid question, but if i mount exhaust fans in the top and place radiator (s) below them, where does the intake come from? would I need to duct intake fans for the radiators as well?

It works like a heat sink right? So I need fresh air blowing ONTO the radiator...right? I will have holes on the sides of the case on either side near the top (measure about 2.5 inches x 6 inches, oval) i can duct air to the radiators from these holes if need be but I dont think I will have room for fans right up on the holes. only other solution i can see is raise bottom of the case with oversized feet for airflow beneath and mount fans in bottom blowing up to top of case for radiators. or can i mount fans directly beneath radiator so theres a fan on either side?

am i missing something? or can i just mount radiator in roof with a blowhole above and mount fans beneath it? seems like i wont get fresh airflow that way though...

i know that in cars, the electric radiator fans are inside the engine compartment and draw air from the front of the radiator over the hot coils when the car is parked, I would imagine that would be just as effieient in a computer.

Ive seen radiators mounted all over the place, roof of case, front bezel, rear of case, the fan always seems to be mounted towards the inside of the case.

Wait for the Professional response, Im just speaking from what i've seen.

I am getting into this topic, as im toying with the idea of water for my next rig....im learning so much!

Thanks for asking all these great questions!

There a many guys that feel having the radiator fans positioned to suck air through the radiator works better then having it try to push air through. But the difference will probably be small.

As far as having your radiator fans pull fresh air in, that only works well if the air is ducted right back out of the case. But this is the best overall solution. Next best is just to have them set to exhaust case air out through the radiator. Most of the heat that is being generated is IN the water, so the case air will be cooler then in a normal air cooled case.

In a normal air cooled case the heatsinks absorb the heat from the component, and the Fan transfers the heat from the heatsink into the case air heating the case. Then your case fans move that warm air outside. But in a water cooled case, the real big heat producers transfer their heat into the water, and it is removed from the system and exhausted out by the radiator.

These are basic guidlines for you to use and ment to inform you of HOW these things work so you can apply them successfully reducing the amount of individually specific questions that you will need answered. This way you can make the best call based on good information and not run into problems.

You see, you can ask a very simple question that usually has a "best solution" answer, which is the response that most any of us would offer to your question. But if your question is missunderstood or if you leave out an important little detail, then the answer you get may not really have been the best for you. That is why it is best just to tell you how things work and let you figure out how to apply it.

Of course if you get stuck, or things don't seem right, ask us.
There are plenty of guys here to help.

I just ordered this 120 mm exhaust fan



plus 2 80 mm intake fans (I know i said i didnt wanta lot of holes but i think i figured out a way to make it work)



and 2 of these maze 3s