This post is kind of open ended, as I am looking for your opinions. Would have done a poll, but I think it would be best for everyone to give their reasons as opposed to just a yes/no answer.

Racial/Ethnic/Religious Profiling: An intrinsically evil idea or effective investigative tool with potential for abuse.

As a white male, I'll admit that if I've been profiled, I am not aware of it. However, knowing that there are limited resources for our collevtive protection (police, FBI, TSA, etc...) it would seem to me to be an effective tool to maximize the impact of those few individuals who are looking for evildoers.

Let's use the people who bombed London as an example. What similarities are there among that group?

1. Religion - Islam. While this is one of the biggest factors for their actions, you really can't visually identify someone as a follower of Islam unless they are wearing a kaffiah. Not very effective as a profiling tool, unless you see them eating pork rinds.
2. Age - 20s to mid 30s. Fairly easy to place a person in the proper age bracket, so I think it would be benificial.
3. Sex - Male. Unless they start wearing drag, I would focus on this as the #1 aspect to look for. Yes, there are women in extremist groups in Palestine and elsewhere, but their numbers are much smaller than their male counterparts.
4. Ethnicity - ???. How do you describe the ethnicity of an Arab? Dark complexion, dark eyes & hair? Can't the same be said of Greeks, Turks, southern Italians, and Hispanics? Not a good tool at all, especially when you consider that some of the latest individuals are of African or South Asian descent.

So based on these factors, if I was a TSA agent, I would be primarily looking at Males aged 20-30ish to protect from airline hijackers/bombers. If I was looking for suspects in an abortion clinic bombing, chances are that the age and sex are going to be the same, but more than likely to be white as are most serial killers (based on statistical evidence).

Granted, there is potential for abuse by racist people in positions of authority, but is it a realistic use of funds and time to search a 78 year old lady in a wheelchair for contraband, weapons, or a bomb? Until the tactics of the terrorists are changed, why wouldn't we want to use our resources as efficiently as possible?

Profiling is the most used tool in my trade (security)..........Back when I was heavily in Executive Protection (I did it for 13 yrs.) we used profiling in regards to "Disguntled Employees" (remember all the workplace killings) and suspicious objects.

I used to test my guys to see if they were following protocal in regards to suspicious people and packages.
I'd rig an envelope like an explosive device to see if they'd catch it and follow the required procedures. At the executives home, we had a small x-ray machine to check all mail and packages coming into the estate home. And yes, there is a certain profile for mail bombs and packages (all of the security staff had to be trained by the ATF). I also would send people to different executive homes to see if they could be ID'd and or caught attempting to penetrate the estate (usually it was my personal friends or my dad's friends who had nothing to do for a couple of hours).

The thing about profiling is that once trained (training is required) it gives the identifier a direction to look...

Very interesting post Im_gumby! Let's just hope no one gets their panties in a wad, and ruins what could be a very good discussion.

Racial profiling has been done for ages. Although depending on what your talking about they may call it something different. Say for instance something so innocuous as advertising.

People who sell products have target specific people they are trying to reach. All the police agencies are doing is enlisting the same tactic to catch potentially dangerous people more efficiently.

In this time we have to have the people protecting the public using every means at their disposal.IMHO.

It can be sad but true sometimes, here where I live the native population is pretty high especially in the west end of our city. I have gone as far as removing my amp and subs if I know my car will be unattended. Sadly the most likely candidate to steal my stuff will be a first nationÂ’s person. In our cities paper there was a article publish near election times of the crime in our city based on many factors, a huge chart. Well it showed basically how first nations people accounted for %84 of the crime in our city, of course the person/ people responsible for this article where put on fire for it.

So is it racial (profiling) for me to think that all native people steal? Yeah..I guess.

Of course that isn't true, but dont "they" say its better to be safe than sorry?

Quote: Originally Posted by TYCOON It can be sad but true sometimes, here where I live the native population is pretty high especially in the west end of our city. I have gone as far as removing my amp and subs if I know my car will be unattended. Sadly the most likely candidate to steal my stuff will be a first nationÂ’s person. In our cities paper there was a article publish near election times of the crime in our city based on many factors, a huge chart. Well it showed basically how first nations people accounted for %84 of the crime in our city, of course the person/ people responsible for this article where put on fire for it. So is it racial (profiling) for me to think that all native people steal? Yeah..I guess. Of course that isn't true, but dont "they" say its better to be safe than sorry?

I think we have to remember that just because a group is profiled, doesn't mean they are guilty. It just means that more focus is on them.

In my last post for this thread, guess what the profile is for a "disgruntled worker"

As they say, the race doesn't always go to the swiftest, or the contest to the strongest, but that's sure the way to bet.

If the majority of crime in a certain area is commited by a segment of the population that can be identified visually with ease, it seems it would be negligent of the authorities to not use that as a tool.

Yeah, but when profiling, you get down to specifics. It starts at what type of crime and who have committed those types of crimes in the past. It actually takes quite a few crimes and then researching those crimes to establish a viable profile. And you have to remember that there are always exceptions to a profile.

IÂ’m for profiling. I have nothing to hide from security searches.
So then why do I need to be searched at the airport, and now subways, only because the original flight plan was changed by 1 day or by a few hours, or because I carry a tool box?

Sadly I have chosen to drive than fly whenever possible.
Weekly I drive 1200 miles only because I do not want to be searched for things that
I do not carry. I could fly but I do not by choice.

As it is now my livelihood is traveling to any place a plane can land and a rental car will take me. Picking out one, me, from a crowd will not mean safer transportation for all others.

Stop and check all travelers if the concern is valid.

At this time reported, most if not all, terrorist are from a general region and DO fit a profile.

When the terrorist tactics change then profiling should change.

Political correctness is asinine! Yes donÂ’t judge a book by its cover I know,
but there has been few reports of 90 year old, wheel chair riding, people trying to destroy the free world.
And yes I have seen 90 year old wheel chair riding people searched. When was the last report of 90 year old wheel chair riding person accused of terrorism?

Now that is subject to change because war is hell and a desperate terrorist will adapt and send anyone to their death only because they have been brainwashed into thinking they are doing a good for their Cause/RELIGION.

I do not care what cause or religion you worship or what you believe. I do care when you think
I do not deserve to live only because your narrow mind is pigeonholed into a ridiculous position.

ANY point of view that perceives or presumes others lives are not worthy of more than
War fodder is then a target in my book!

I do not have the answers to the problem here but I say if it smells like a terrorist
Kill it before it can reproduce.

Woohoo, I can fit into each of those categories! Due to my facial hair, I look older. Let's guess how many times I've been searched and/or profiled!

All personal annoyances to being profiled aside, I don't see it as a good means. Im_gumby has it down. You can't really use religion, and both age and sex are too broad. That causes profiling to come down to ethnicity. Indians, Native Americans, Latinos, Italians, etc can be mistaken for "Arabs". This would be like stopping every black man going into a store in an attempt to profile robbers, or stop every white man out at night in an attempt to profile serial killers.

Don't ever think just because that elderly gentleman is in a wheelchair that it's inconceivible for them to commit an act of violence. I asked a question on what the profile is for a "Disgruntle Worker" ..........it is a white male, between the ages of 30 - 70 yrs. old. Now what does this have to do with terrorism..........

Terrorism comes in all forms, from some dumb**** who thinks he'll get 17 virgins if he pilots a plane into a building, or puts anthrax in an envelope and sends it to a Congressman, or drives a Ryder Rental truck in front of a Federal Building that's loaded with fertilizer and diesel fuel or the man who finds out that after 19 yrs. of loyal service to a company finds out that his position is going away and he doesn't have a job (nor his pension) and decides to go into the workplace and kill everyone inside cause he has nothing to live for.

Profiling does work. It hardens the target (be it airlines, subways, etc.) and either prevents a potential incident from occuring (terrorist usually go for weak targets) or it identifies it's perpetraitor.

Bump.......

I know alot of people think that there are racial issues tied into "Profiling"............There is, but only to a small degree.........Just look at what happened in England with the recent bombings.............I was hearing reports that some of the participants were their own people "Sympathizers".......Which means that the profiles are modified somewhat, along with the procedures...........

Go on a military base nowadays, definitely profiles being used right when you hit the entrance...........And guess what.......Those persons or vehicles fitting that profile will be scrutinized more closely prior to entering the base.......Your ID is checked and your vehicles are searched......... Security cameras everywhere..........I believe that you'll be seeing more cameras installed in your city as time goes on.........and that's almost every big city in the US.

one of the reasons why security searches people outside of the profile is to avoid lawsuits from political correctness groups or organizations like the ACLU. they search elderly white people they can say that they aren't doing racial profiling.

Man, oh man.....I'm not touching this topic with a 10-foot pole....

Rob

EDIT:

However, I will reply in part to the "searching the white, elderly folks".

Ever hear of the term, "mule". That's exactly what they represent, in many different aspects of the word. Sometimes it is with their knowledge but in most cases of terrorism, I imagine that it would be without their knowledge.

Slip a package into their wheelchair while they are curbside, get through security, and retrive the package (the package being anything from illegal contraband to sharpened plastic knives to an explosive material).

No one is above suspicion.

Quote: Originally Posted by Rob Man, oh man.....I'm not touching this topic with a 10-foot pole.... Rob EDIT: However, I will reply in part to the "searching the white, elderly folks". Ever hear of the term, "mule". That's exactly what they represent, in many different aspects of the word. Sometimes it is with their knowledge but in most cases of terrorism, I imagine that it would be without their knowledge. Slip a package into their wheelchair while they are curbside, get through security, and retrive the package (the package being anything from illegal contraband to sharpened plastic knives to an explosive material). No one is above suspicion.

Exactly Rob...........

In the UK cameras are evryware, and I know that I must be deemed a risk because when I walk past they usualy follow me but not often other people.

I think the main problem is that when someone says "Profiling," someone else always thinks "Racial/Ethnic/Religious/Whatever Profiling."

Things like racial profiling, religious profiling, etc are BAD. They are disriminating, often based on biases and opinions rather than facts. "It's always the Arab guy!" That doesn't sound to scientific to me. "All Muslims are terrorists." That's just ridiculous.

Profiling in itself is a good thing. It maximizes the employment personnel and resources. It follows statistics and precedents. It's like playing poker. You don't bet on every hand you draw with the attitude that ANY card could be a winner. You play the odds. If 98% of the terrorists we're after are 23-30 year old women with corn-rows and tank tops, don't get your feelings hurt if you match the description. Get a new haircut, and rest assured that you were "profiled" for the safety of all.

Profiling can't be used alone. Mules and sometimes just inconspicuous violators are caught by random measures. It's not a perfect system, but it works the majority of the time.

This thread got me thinkin about profiling goin on in michigan. We have like the highest Islam population is the USA. It happens all the time down here. It's like the way some people think. Arab = terrorist

Picture it...

There are a race of green people and a race of blue people.

The blue and green people live together... but it's noted that green people are 75% more likely to commit violent crimes due to a combination of socio-economic depression, religion, etc...

If you were a blue person... wouldn't you be a little more suspicious of green people?

Still... I'll admit, metaphorically, we operate in a world of green, light-green, dark-green, white-green, mixed green, jolly green, etc... people...

Now then... profiling doesn't always work... in my case, I'm still a perfect profile of a serial killer as a white dude in my 20s, chaotic life, who tends to lean towards being an introvert. I don't really have the desire to kill anyone really... I'd really rather just watch Invader Zim in the basement... in other words, "Stay home and be all normal!"

Which basically says that a profile can exist, but it would be folly to say it's always correct... but it would also be dumb to ignore patterns... such as "75% of violent crimes are commited by green people".

So I guess my round-about answer is "profiling= good idea, can help narrow a search, but don't call it gospel".

Quote: Originally Posted by Darksamurai So I guess my round-about answer is "profiling= good idea, can help narrow a search, but don't call it gospel".

I call it.........."The tools of the Trade"..........

Quote: Originally Posted by Highperf15 I call it.........."The tools of the Trade"..........

I would agree that profiling is important, but it's not definitine all the time... as per what you said above there were protocols for testing suspicious packaging...

Were 100% of those packages armed and ready to explode?

Are 100% of disgruntled workers carrying explosives?

I'm not arguing the validity of profiling, I'm saying that profiling can not, 100% tell me who (or what) is going to be dangerous. It CAN tell me what to watch out for though... which was my whole point.