Quote: LONDON (Reuters) - The word "fail" should be banned from use in British classrooms and replaced with the phrase "deferred success" to avoid demoralizing pupils, a group of teachers has proposed.

Quote: Members of the Professional Association of Teachers (PAT) argue that telling pupils they have failed can put them off learning for life. A spokesman for the group said it wanted to avoid labeling children. "We recognize that children do not necessarily achieve success first time," he said. "But I recognize that we can't just strike a word from the dictionary," he said. The PAT said it would debate the proposal at a conference next week.

Ya know what? If they FAIL, they have indeed deferred success and if they continue to defer sucess, they will NEVER ATTAIN IT!

We are making children too soft. As the internet has attributed to Bill Gates:

Quote: Rule 1: Life is not fair - get used to it.

Quote: Rule 2: The world won't care about your self-esteem. The world will expect you to accomplish something BEFORE you feel good about yourself. Rule 3: You will NOT make $40,000 a year right out of high school. You won't be a vice-president with a car phone until you earn both. Rule 4: If you think your teacher is tough, wait till you get a boss. Rule 5: Flipping burgers is not beneath your dignity. Your grandparents had a different word for burger flipping -- they called it opportunity. Rule 6: If you mess up, it's not your parents' fault, so don't whine about your mistakes, learn from them. Rule 7: Before you were born, your parents weren't as boring as they are now. They got that way from paying your bills, cleaning your clothes and listening to you talk about how cool you are. So before you save the rain forest from the parasites of your parents' generation, try delousing the closet in your own room. Rule 8: Your school may have done away with winners and losers, but life has not. In some schools, they have abolished failing grades and they'll give you as many times as you want to get the right answer. This doesn't bear the slightest resemblance to ANYTHING in real life. Rule 9: Life is not divided into semesters. You don't get summers off and very few employers are interested in helping you find yourself. Do that on your own time. Rule 10: Television is NOT real life. In real life people actually have to leave the coffee shop and go to jobs. Rule 11: Be nice to nerds. Chances are you'll be working for one.

One of the textbooks from my Global Marketing class is : The World Is Flat: A Brief History of the Twenty-First Century. by Thomas L. Friedman, New York: Farrar, Straus, and Giroux, 2005. ISBN: 0-374-292

In this book, Friedman goes on to propose that due to a variety of reasons, global competition for jobs is inevitable and a good thing. The benefit comes from the ability for companies to be able to supply lower cost products for the same or better quality, thereby raising the standard of living.
The loss of low skill jobs needs to be made up by continuing education for those displaced workers to allow them to move into higher skilled, better paying employment which will not be as easily outsourced. He also interviewed the president of a major technical university in California, who recounted that the skills and work ethic of students from public schools are far superior than those of private schools due to a sense of entitlement.

I know we have a large segment of members who are still in high school and college, so please believe me when I tell you this... unless your parents are multimillionaires and have already set up a significant trust fund, YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR OWN SUCCESS!!! And to achieve this, you NEED education... as much as possible, and continue to increase your education and skills as you grow older. There is no better insurance for your future employment and success like a broad education and skill set.

I agree! Im glad to be starting college...I get to be smarter!

And I have to disagree with 7...Im not cool at school..nor do I talk about that....

Excellent post !!!!!

I think these kids nowadays expect success, they think they should be driving the nice cars, living in the $250,000 + house and that life is one big party. I think the partial blame here is ....THE PARENTS and how the kids are raised.......

Hmmmmmmm...............kids are in for a rude awakening..........heh

Quote: ... The PAT said it would debate the proposal at a conference next week. ...

Did they say where? I've got an overwhelming urge to go & slap them with a fish ... or should I say "facilitate a maxillofacial / piscine interface scenario" ?

Quote: Originally Posted by Jonny English Did they say where? I've got an overwhelming urge to go & slap them with a fish ... or should I say "facilitate a maxillofacial / piscine interface scenario" ?

I wish it did... I'd mail you a nice

From what I've seen in 16+ years of schooling, students don't fail because they don't understand the material; they fail because they refuse to do the work required.

I remember getting an F once -- pissed me off so bad I retook the class, got an A, and went on to graduate with honors. If the teacher had coddled me, I may have ended up just another C student.

I'm not big on reality TV, but there's a new one in the US called, "Brat Camp". They take problem kids and push them harder -- they don't tell them they're winners even if they choose to be lazy. Guess what? They turn out better.

Quote: Originally Posted by Jonny English Did they say where?

The Palace Hotel, Buxton, Derbyshire. Monday -Thursday next week.
http://www.pat.org.uk/index.cfm?para...t/conf2005.htm

I've been through 17 years of school now, and though this may upset some people I think that this "self esteem" crap is one reason why suburban public schools in the US are failing to keep up with their private and non-secular counterparts (urban schools have a whole different set of problems, so I'd rather not get into that). My schooling has all been at Catholic schools (high school and college have been Jesuit). In my schools (most particularly the Jesuit ones) if you were a screw up you were simply kicked out. There was no coddling. You did you work and got passing grades or you did not return the following semester. If kids don't want to learn why bother? They can regret it while they are working at a fast food establishment. There is no reason anyone (who is not mentally handicapped) should fail in high school. If they don't want to make the effort why waste the money on them. I think public schools should take this attitude more often. I'm sick of hearing how my generation is lazy and stupid (and then seeing that it is often true). It's not entirely our fault the adults of the previous generation allowed many kids to be stupid and lazy, and when allowed to be unproductive many kids will. So, kick these drains on schools out. They don't care enough about themselves to learn something then screw 'em. Why the hell should anyone be trying to make their lazy a$$es feel good about themselves. Work or leave, don't waste teachers time and our tax dollars.

Personally i think some of the laws are to blame as well. Sociaity has gone and made it illegal to disipline your children as well. Heaven help You if you spank your child because your going to jail for child abuse. It creating children that are Used to getting there own way, Which in turn affects our schools because the kids think they can run things. Also Alot of kids get everything handed to them, and thats not good either they dont learn to value everything the have or the value of a good days work. Nor do they seem to realize how hard their parents worked to give them all the stuff they have. Personally I think alot of todays problems would be solved with a good old spanking or some time in the corner. And before you guys go calling me OLD i'm only 26 and yes i have kids.

Quote: Originally Posted by Ctlm17 So, kick these drains on schools out... Work or leave, don't waste teachers time and our tax dollars.

The problem becomes the drain on society that these individuals become once they are out of school.
I am more in favor of keeping them in school until they get their deploma, whether they like it or not. If you want to be 25 and still in high school, that's your choice.

Spare the rod and spoil the child.

Most of the problem kids start with problems before they get to school.
Some parents just donÂ’t discipline their kids others may be trying to get attention.
Even negative attention is better than no attention.


I donÂ’t have all the answers but my vote is SPANKÂ’EM.

Sell 'em all to medical research companies!

Excellent post Im_gumby! I think on more than one occasion you and I have found that we see eye to eye on this kind of issue.

It is very unfortunate the state of young people in the world today. It is not something that would be easily fixed with any one single answer. This downslide is a progression of many, many years of mistake after mistake.

What it comes back to though is that parents and society are way to easy on them. We dumb down the systems, and everything else. When they hit the "real world" they are ill equipped to handle it, and have no idea how to manage their own lives.

Very sad situation.

Shoot if I brought a report card home with a C for a grade I was in huge trouble. Trouble is in my opinion, too many kids think that things are as easy as they are on TV or in their video games. Life is friggin hard and you have to work at it every day. You can't expect to get a good job without a degree or some sort of specialized training. All I can say is I'm glad I'm not in high school anymore. I think I would go nuts with all of the crap that goes on there now.

Isn't it odd that we always talk about things being society's fault? It makes me wonder if there's really a team of retarded monkeys runnin' the world. After all, WE the parents and WE the people here at PimpRig are "the society" ourselves. At least part of it...

We all seem to have about the same views, so WHO IN THE HECK is screwing it all up??? My thought is that a few piss-poor parents and weak politicians. "The school spanked my child. That's abuse!" followed by, "You're right, Ma'am. I'll propose a law to ban that right away."

Like you've all said, it's a bunch of crap. I teach my kids that while winning might not be everything, losing sucks more often than not, and there are always losers. Not always in a competitive, sporting sense, but in the classroom as well. Losers like the kids we'll be raising when we decide that "failure" is a bad word.

As Foe mentioned, the real world is not an easy place. Is full of unforgiving hardasses like me. I've never seen anyone defer employment, but I've seen a few people get fired. I've never had soldiers that deferred authority, but I've busted a few down. And hey, if it wasn't for failures, we'd have a hard time telling who excels.

There's a huge difference between telling a child that they're ignorant and explaining to them that they have failed. Failure just leaves room for determination and a come-back. It's like the whole "No Child Left Behind" thing. LEAVE THEM BEHIND...THEY'LL CATCH UP. Or, they'll just be a shining exampe of what not to do. Either way, they'll serve a purpose.

As an end note, don't worry Gumby. Bill's monopoly had no say in those rules. Dang internet hoaxes! Those are part of a book by a guy named Sykes. But still, good rules. He has a few more, one of which being, "Smoking isn't cool. If you don't believe me, you obviously haven't seen one of your buddies at room temperature lately." Or something like that...lol

I think some kids just like to go thru the "School of Hardknocks"..........................My ex-GF's boy was like that....................You would sit him down and explain to him in down-to-earth terms about doing drugs, then he still goes out and does them.........Even though, he was required to do a weekly drug test ordered by the court............he'd get a hot test ever other week............geeze

No wonder she's my ex...........heh

FF, I'm right there with you on "Brat Camp"... Take them out of their comfort zone, and even the toughest of them breaks down and cries like a baby... Discipline, physical/mental/emotional challenges break them down to the core and then rebuild them stronger and better prepared for the future...

The blame for the current generation's woes is not easily nailed down to one group or another, unless you lump everyone in together and call it "society's" fault... I do, however think that most of the blame rests on the parents' shoulders...

Putting an egg and some sperm together, then sitting idly by "watching the magic happen" doesn't make you a parent, just another donor. Caring, nurturing, protecting, rolling up your sleeves and getting in the trenches to make sure your children have a positive example to learn from, that's a pretty good start...

The worst thing about the UK system is the benifits system. You know what? I'm sick of having to see part of my pay cheque go towards somone who doesnt do jack all day. Children in the current generation are seeing just that. They are either spoilt rotten with the latest clothes or whatever, have no sence in working things out for themselves, or are plain lazy because they know theres free money at the end of it. Hell - the education system is now paying students £100 every month to stay in college!

I was brought up with parents about 3 generations behind the current system. My dad is 72 and my mum is 59. As a consequence, I would like to think my upbringing had tought me ways that stick 2 fingers in the air to this "here have a pass grade for smiling today" shinanigan. Coupled with my parents income certainly not being average or above (£18k where the average is £22k), I had to work to earn anything...right from 13 years old.

The sole reason that any economy survives, or civilization for that matter, is competition. Competition for food, money, shelter, everything. If kids think they are going to win no matter what, they don't try hard and they fail. Thats why you can't baby and pamper and shelter them like that.

All good posts and I agree with about 95% of all posted.

I have raised two kids who are adults now. My daughter, bless her heart, is an honor student with a 4.0 GPA at college. She seems to work herself to a frazzle to get those grades and I think she understands what hard work will get her. Her brother, bless him too, is in Iraq. He isn't the sharpest ball bearing in the box, but he has a huge heart. They were both raised the same and have gone through some very tough times in their young lives.

They were raised the same, but are completely different than each other. While I agree that the bulk of the kids problems are because of poor parenting, about 25% of it is inherent in some kids.

My daughter is sweet, gentle, smart, and is brutally honest. My son is hard core, not very honest, and while not as dumb as a rock, not to swift either. Love 'em both, but my point is that no matter what I did while raising them (and continue to), my son goes in a sometimes less than honorable path.

So... I'll cut this book short and spare you more... but, I think that something has to be said about a percentage of our kids.... some of them just do the wrong thing no matter how you raise them.

/Splitter