I've been pondering this one for a while now...

You know the stereotype as portrayed by Hollywood in the Lone Gunmen from the X-Files and Gene Hackman's character (heck, the whole movie's premise) in Enemy of the State.

These same people believe some to all of the following:

1. Apollo moon landing was faked.
2. 9/11 was actually planned by the government.
3. Kennedy assaination conspiracy.
4. Existance of UFOs.
5. New World Order/UN/Jews running everything.
6. Hollocaust was staged.
7. Global warming.
8. US automakers have surpressed technology of water-powered cars.
9. The government is spying on you.

I'm not going to go into any of these in a pro/con type of thing, 'cause debating these is like telling a fanboy that their favorite brand of chip or videocard isn't as good as the competition or posting spam on this site... ultimately an exercise in futility.

Wiki's article on this is fairly interesting reading: Conspiracy theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If you've read any of my earlier posts about the wireless tapping and the Attn. General, you know my opinion of both, but something recently popped up again with this:

News Link

Granted it comes from the Washington Post, which is denounced by some as being left-leaning in it's political views about a circuit court in San Francisco which is also reportedly very liberal, but when it comes to my constitutional rights, I would hope the judicial branch would err on the side of caution.

Quote: Originally Posted by Washington Post "This seems to put us in the 'trust us' category," Judge M. Margaret McKeown said about the government's assertions that its surveillance activities did not violate the law. " 'We don't do it. Trust us. And don't ask us about it.' "

Not to mention don't ask us to prove we complied with the law, and try not to think about the case of US vs. Reynolds which the claim of State Secrets is based upon, and the fact that after the documents were unclassified in 2000, there were no classified reasons to note other than the condition of the plane which would have benefited the claimant's case.

So my question is this: at what point do you go from "I think the government is doing something it shouldn't." to "I'm certain the government is running amok"?

What do you think? And if you think they are doing something illegal, are they justified in doing so in times of war? Are they ever justified?

Wow, talk about opening up a can of worms.....

Is the government doing illegal stuff and covering it up? Hell yeah. They have been doing that for a very long time, I would guess way back to the beginning to some extent. Therre will always be things that the government "needs" to do that circumvent the laws of the everyday person. And they will always make sure to cover it up, most likely for the same reasons it "needed" to be done in the first place.

Are they justified? This is the real question, and why I said "needed" in the previous answer. In a nutshell this is all "gray area". What you may think is justification may not be what I think is justification. As a matter of fact, I would venture to guess that if you asked 100 people if something was justification for the government to do X, you would get a 50-50 split with the 50 who disagree providing 50 completely different justifications that they would accept. It also depends upon what they are doing.

Are they justified for keeping suspected terrorists locked up indefinitely? torturing them? Messing with their heads? I think if there is enough evidence that would convince a grand jury to charge them with a crime, then yeah. But that's my opinion.

"State Secrets" is a touchy subject. Information is deemed critical to National Security by a very small group of people, and just like the justification argument, those people and us may have different views on what is National Security and what isn't. Is information that would allow someone to say, sue the President, something that falls under "National Security"? Well, you can bet you last dollar that the White House staff will think so, but you and I may not.

The bottom line is that the government will always be dong things that:

• Are illegal
• The general public would disagree with
• Need to be kept secret for security reasons

and until we live in a world without terrorism and evil, it will always be that way. What is flexible is where the line in the sand is drawn. At what point do We the People decide that enough is enough?

Heres a thought Ive been thinking about global warming:

Our atmosphere has appr 21% of Oxygen. Oxygen is used up in combustion of hydrocarbons. If all this carbon dioxide is warming our atmosphere, Wouldnt there be no Oxygen left in the Atmosphere? So, Then in order to replenish that supply of Oxygen, something must be happening to that Carbon Dioxide in our atmosphere, MAYBE, Just maybe though some chemical process (Somewhere, maybe in the ocean or in the atmosphere) That Carbon Dioxide is being converted to carbon and Oxygen. Trees dont count, I thought there wasnt enough trees to handle the amount of Co2 each person produces.

So, How is the earth getting warmer? Well Obviously something else is causing global warming. It cant be caused by Co2, then it must be caused by something else.


I do believe some of the conspiracy, but I am rethinking my ideas and all the evidence Ive come across so far. The most I was concerned about was most of the 9/11 conspiracies. Because of past events, I dont believe what I see or hear in the news anymore.

I completely understand the need for keeping certain things secret.

Anyone who doesn't probably still thinks OJ is looking for the "real" killer.

The real problem, which goes against the whole design of our system of government, is that the current administration's agressive interpretation of the Unitary Executive Theory.

Where's the check on their power?

They are taking steps to prevent either of the other two EQUAL branches of government from reviewing their actions.

Here's a fun little activity for you all: Find and replace "Richard M. Nixon" in the following with "George W. Bush" and ask yourself if we shouldn't have another impeachment? Articles of Nixon's impeachment

Quote: Article 2 Using the powers of the office of President of the United States, Richard M. Nixon, in violation of his constitutional oath faithfully to execute the office of President of the United States and, to the best of his ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States, and in disregard of his constitutional duty to take care that the laws be faithfully executed, has repeatedly engaged in conduct violating the constitutional rights of citizens, impairing the due and proper administration of justice and the conduct of lawful inquiries, or contravening the laws governing agencies of the executive branch and the purposed of these agencies. This conduct has included one or more of the following: 2. He misused the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the Secret Service, and other executive personnel, in violation or disregard of the constitutional rights of citizens, by directing or authorizing such agencies or personnel to conduct or continue electronic surveillance or other investigations for purposes unrelated to national security, the enforcement of laws, or any other lawful function of his office; he did direct, authorize, or permit the use of information obtained thereby for purposes unrelated to national security, the enforcement of laws, or any other lawful function of his office; and he did direct the concealment of certain records made by the Federal Bureau of Investigation of electronic surveillance.

And yes, I see the "unrelated to national security" in the above paragraph, but I counter that with the disregard for the FISA court review system that was set up in response to Milhouse's activities, which W has/had NO LEGAL REASON to circumvent.

As long as nobody tries to blow up my man cave and shut off my Internet, i don't care if i'm real or not. As long as I'm happy they can do whatever they want.

All governments lie, cheat and steal. Is it justified, aahhh, not going there.

Often crazy delusions get branded as conspiracy theory's (Eg. Soul collectors on the moon). These are clearly false to anyone with a rational mind, I would rank a faked moon landing theory among these due to the reflectors left on the moon mainly by those landings.
There are other ones which have some element of truth in the 9/11 theorys etc. but have been blown way out of proportion, sure it's clear that some people knew something big was going to happen by activity on the stock market. But does that shown it was all planned internaly? or does a few seconds of grainy video "prove" anything when it's enlarged so much an entire pixel fills 1/4 of the screen.
Others however are almost completely true, Watergate for example or the secret summer get together's of the rich and powerful been mighty strange (although nothing illegal).
To me its pretty clear that the world is full of pretty dodgey deals and corruption but I don't think that it's an organized effort to delude everyone just lots of little pockets of filth.

"DickNervous said: Are they justified for keeping suspected terrorists locked up indefinitely? torturing them? Messing with their heads? I think if there is enough evidence that would convince a grand jury to charge them with a crime, then yeah. But that's my opinion."


Dick,

What you have to look at here is that all of the current terrorist detainees were combatants captured "out of uniform" and are NOT covered by the rules of the Geneva Convention. By the Geneva Convention, they could have been executed "on sight" since they were not wearing a uniform to designate them as combatants. This was a rule to try and help reduce civilian casualties during war time.

As such, they have no rights what-so-ever and Grand Juries OR the judicial Branch have no jurisdiction. That is really why the rest of the government want Gitmo shut down and the detainees brought state-side. Once they are brought into this country, they believe that their status would give them rights under the constitution. Actually I don't believe it does or even should considering the circumstances of their capture. They are lucky to be ALIVE at all.

Ok , so here's everyones chance to call me a crackpot , wackjob, nutcase , ETC ETC ( Oh wait y'all allready do )

I'm the 1% ( so far ) that disagrees , and If ya got any sense you'll know they dont cover up jack.

whatever the Government does that is Illegal or whatever , They do in plain sight ........... Oh wait you watch NBC, ABC,CBS , Blah Blah Blah news ........they're covering up what they do ....... PFFT. They aint coverin' up nothin' , Its called "SPIN". With enough money and influence you can make anything look like what you want it to.

And about the Jews ruling the world media? We do. Just don't tell anyone I told you. I won't get anymore Channukah cards if they hear about me telling others....

How about Area 51??? I mean why is that place so Secret? What are they covering up? Its so bad that they will shoot ya if ya come anywhare close to the place.

Schizophrenic paranoia or total awareness.

You be the judge.

Quote: Originally Posted by HemiCuda1970 How about Area 51??? I mean why is that place so Secret? What are they covering up? Its so bad that they will shoot ya if ya come anywhare close to the place.

Watch that area 51 show on i think it was discovery or history channel.

It was used for many years to test top secret planes etc by the government. Planes so secret that prototypes from 20 years ago that failed are just coming out of secrecy. And right now there is nobody there but security because they use to dump toxic waste also around there and the radiation is to bad to work around there now. So they moved to a new location.

Quote: Originally Posted by musclecars&computers Watch that area 51 show on i think it was discovery or history channel. It was used for many years to test top secret planes etc by the government. Planes so secret that prototypes from 20 years ago that failed are just coming out of secrecy. And right now there is nobody there but security because they use to dump toxic waste also around there and the radiation is to bad to work around there now. So they moved to a new location.

The radiation around the place refered to as area 51 is at a level high enough to be worrying but it used to be much worse. As for the toxic waste it's no longer burt there and there is contaminated ground but it's only a small area that is highly toxic. At the facility there is various comuniictaions interceptions facilitys and radars showing that the base is used for inteligence gathering in part. Looking at google earth there are fighter planes stationed there (f16?). Eye whittnesses in the area frequantly report strange aircraft in the night and the airspace above area 51 is restricted to an infinite altititude. There are many newly built hangers and storage sheds near the runways and the main runway has been extended recently. Also there is a new munitions storage facility.

From this I would guess manily that the place is far from inactive and has more than one purpose, mainly: inteligence gathering, reserch and development of new aircraft deemed secret, air defence, weapons testing?
The preseance of the worlds longest runway with the facility for aircraft to overshoot and use the lake bed as a runway and that it has been extended recently suggests that the aircraft tested there are landing at very high velocity.

more than that I don't know, but I doubt it's inactive.

Quote: Originally Posted by HigHTecHReDNecK Ok , so here's everyones chance to call me a crackpot , wackjob, nutcase , ETC ETC ( Oh wait y'all allready do ) I'm the 1% ( so far ) that disagrees , and If ya got any sense you'll know they dont cover up jack. whatever the Government does that is Illegal or whatever , They do in plain sight ........... Oh wait you watch NBC, ABC,CBS , Blah Blah Blah news ........they're covering up what they do ....... PFFT. They aint coverin' up nothin' , Its called "SPIN". With enough money and influence you can make anything look like what you want it to.

Sounds like blissful ignorance with a side order of "couldn't give a damn" to me

In all honesty, I hold the same opinion on conspiracy theories as I do the existence of God, that if they/He do/es exist/s, that it would be impossible to ever find out without either dieing or becoming president. However if the truth about JFK ever comes out, I promised my father that I'd visit his grave and leave whatever report or papers there with him...

Quote: Originally Posted by Gzim if the truth about JFK ever comes out

I'm too good to get caught !!

Area 51 is indeed active. Like musclescars said, it takes a long time to find out the secret projects of today. Its just like the 30 year rule or whatever for documents from what happened during administrations to come out the same does for high security military developments

I'm the 2% that agreed with HTRN.

Is there stuff that happens that the people aren't aware of? Hell yeah. Is there stuff that the people contrive in their own minds that become popular cultural topics that aren't true? Hell yeah.

There are 3 sure-fire topics that will always get a lot of discussion: Politics (Government), Religion, and what car in history is the best ever.

If people are so narrow minded or uninformed to take to heart some of the beliefs you posted, then I say let them continue their train of thought. It makes it easier for the rest of us to figure out who the crazy ones are.