I keep seeing this around. "Don't use tables for layouts." But nothing I read offers an alternative. It's just assumed everyone knows. I've been in the biz for years and didn't think I need to re-research HTML all over again. Can someone point me in the right direction?

Thanks,

256Killa

The latest and greatest is CSS style sheets.

On the one I'm working on now, I'm using a combination of both. Style for colors and fonts, but that's it.

Rob

Quote: Originally Posted by Rob The latest and greatest is CSS style sheets. On the one I'm working on now, I'm using a combination of both. Style for colors and fonts, but that's it. Rob

I definitely use CSS but I thought it was just for formatting, if that's the right word. Like you said, colors and font manipulation. Is it supposed to be used for arrangement of elements as well or am I just diggin to deep?

CSS is pretty much just for formatting. Regarding the intial question, HTML tables have been replaced by PHP. A basic tutorial

EDIT: added clarity

CSS can be used for placing elements as well.
I hate to look like I'm advertising my own stuff, but I recently re-did my clan's website using only CSS

You can see it at http://www.beefpile.net

If you look at the source code, you will see a bunch of tags, which are sort of like "content bins"

The CSS file is at http://www.beefpile.net/beefstyle.css

If you check that out, you will see a section under the /*--layout--*/ comment line: this is where I organize the page

Each of those headings corresponds to one of the divs in the HTML, and defines the formatting and placement

Yahoo has a good set of grids that you can use as well
http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/grids/

CSS is great for formatting in that can make things much faster. For example, you can use the same CSS stylesheet file for an entire website. If you want to change the font or background color or whatever on the whole website, you can just edit one CSS file instead of each HTML page individually.

For website layouts, CSS is the way to go. If you want to organize content on a webpage, then HTML tables are the way to go.

I used CSS on dealfiesta.com and tables to organize the content. Check it out.

there is nothing wrong with tables.. Its just most of the time people that use tables either do them wrong or use them excessively..

hey thanks all for the help.

Bionic, thanks for providing some samples. I really appreciate that. I haven't looked at them yet but I do understand what your getting at.

Quote: Originally Posted by Peng Lord CSS is pretty much just for formatting. Regarding the intial question, HTML tables have been replaced by PHP. A basic tutorial EDIT: added clarity

PHP is simply database scripting.... PHP bases sites (Even out own PCA and DragonModz) still makes heavy use of tables to format the pages... This very post is contained within tables stored in a database as a template for vBulletin Board as appose to being in an actual HTML/PHP file on the server.... DragonModz posts even have Tables within Tables..... But.... Other PHP driven sites like Post-Nuke and PHP-Nuke to name a few do have the tables coded right into the PHP files....

In other words tables are still VERY useful and a standard for formatting a web page and anyone saying not to use them is simply stating their opinion....

As per my link, frames for content layout and control (indexes, etc.) are not a very good choice. That's what I percieved the original question to be regarding. Using frames, although I realize that the question was regarding tables, I've never heard of anyone actually having a problem with tables per se.

I'm definitely clear on the server-side scripting languages such as php, asp, jsp etc etc. You an incorporate any kind of layout technique into your code of choice. My concern is what is the better layout technique? Supposedly, because of the way tables are rendered in a browser and the order in which they are rendered, deeply nesting them can cause a page to render as if it were on a slow connection. The other issue is just organizing those darn tables and not missing any of the numerous tags you would end up with if you have to nest them really deeply. According to articles I've read, using CSS for layout arrangement solves those issues and is much easier to go back in and modify. But every article I find never gives an example of how it's done. It doesn't just seem all that obvious. I thought the point of CSS is to manage fonts and colors for the most part ya know. I can't see how it can manipulate a complex layout.

Tables weren't really meant to be made for a design element. They were made to show data and all that jazz. But, not many people do that, so instead people started using them for design.
Well, I can't stand tables. Neither can most designers who have W3 complient sites and all that.
Here is an long, but excellent tutorial that will show you how to take a design made in tables and put it into valid CSS and HTML using divs. Or you can read along and start from scratch.