As if the patriot act wasn't bad enough...A big excuse for the government to take away your rights in the face of TERRORISIM. Likely excuse there....It seems that Congress in all its glory decided to make revisions to the expiring act to make some of the invasive items PERMANENT....thats right folks....Kiss your freedoms completely gone...Terrorisim or not, it seems that givng the power to our "Department Of Homeland Security" was stupid...They feel they just cant function without all that wonderfull invasion of privacy they so greatfully enjoyed....Even though parts of this are good for us...requiring accountability for certain acts...The bottom line is that they gained more ability to invade into your privacy....I am all for protecting our borders...and ensuring americans are safe...as well as supportive of our troops in war...But this....this is RIDICULOUS..and very unneccesary.
Read on my friends....prepare to be afraid....very very afraid....
Oh and do more research...learn to read between the lines...it isn't all the sugar that this story makes it sound like...


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10070691/

We need to give to get.... in todays world, the cost of freedom and safety isn't cheap. What are you willing concede to stay safe?

I think we should lock down our north and south borders. I still can't believe we haven't done this yet.

It will be taken to the Supreme Court soon enough. Fear not.

Ummm.. if the cost of freedom is giving up freedom, then we are 100% farked.
And as far as locking down our borders, that is patently ridiculous. America is the one nation in the world that invites the poor to come to make a better life for themselves. If we were to "go turtle" because of terrorist attacks, then all that would do is show the terrorists that they can effect our ability to live the way we want to.

If you RTA, it says that the Justice Department monitors the communications of 30,000 "ordinary people" a year. Do you want some FBI agent listening to your phone conversations or reading your email?

The Patriot Act and a lot of the airport security measures put in place right after 9/11 were kneejerk reactions to a traumatic situation. I think that it makes sense to look back at them and say "what was reasonable, and what choices were made out of the crippling fear we had right after these attacks"

Quote: Originally Posted by Splitter We need to give to get.... in todayÂ’s world, the cost of freedom and safety isn't cheap. What are you willing concede to stay safe?fficeffice" />

Quote: Originally Posted by Splitter I think we should lock down our north and south borders. I still can't believe we haven't done this yet.

We do not need to give up that many freedoms to ensure our safety....Literally the info collected is just plain insane...and even then when its collected....the pattern is too often that they donÂ’t act quick enough...call me a skeptic....

The problem with this bill isn't what they can do...but how easily they can do it....

So in a way we both have a point....Yes there should be ways of monitoring SUSPECTS....but with accountability....Not just saying...okay...tap and follow anyone that you think is a terrorist...



On closing the borders....



This country was founded with the idea that we would take the weak, weary and broken and offer them opportunities...If a person wants to come here and earn their own way...become constructive members of society....I am all for it....However I agree with you on the limitation of the PHYSICAL borders....illegal immigrants cost insane tax dollars and are a real problem.....There needs to be a way to control this without shutting it down completely....

are you safe?

I knew this would happen someday. Ive always said to myself, The war isnt in iraq, nor against terrorist, Its against stuff like this..Our freedom is at stake here. We were safe before, now all of a sudden the government decides we arent safe?

Its not like the FBI already does go into our stuff, this law just gives them the power to, and do it leagaly too. I bet smart kids like me will probably end up in jail first because of curiosity (Yea so what if I like explosives or chemical reactions? Does that mean Im a terrorist?)

If Americas Freedom is gone, we will just be another country.If so Im moving to canada. Atleast they have bacon there.

If terrorist really wanna fork us over, why dont they setup a dam EMP bomb or something? I mean come on, you have 10Kv at an infinite amount of current running across all of america, Anyone can get the parts to make the thing. So why hasnt it been done yet? Because terroism is just a word used to scare us.

Yeah...I'll throw my two cents in on the issue...
I think that the concept of the patriot act is a sound one, removing red tape to protect our nation, but i also agree that the measures go too far for my liking towards invasion of privacy. It's easy to say "well if you have nothing to hide, what are you scared of?" but then you risk losing all the freedoms we have. and on borders...i certainly agree that if someone wants to improve their quality of life i will welcome them, but i will welcome them as an american. the concepts we were taught in school turn out to be mutually exclusive, you see...a country cannot be a melting pot and a multiculteral mosaic...(think tiles in your fondue...eww...) if you want to live here, speak the language, learn how to operate as an american and i will accept you. and i also agree that the flow of illegal immigrants NEEDS to be stopped, because it is out of control.

Quote: Originally Posted by Slaymate It will be taken to the Supreme Court soon enough. Fear not.

DonÂ’t rest just because it may get to the Supreme Court.

Not too long ago the High court turned its back on the working stiff.
I canÂ’t quote the case but in general a city or municipality can
Take your property if it is for the greater “good” of the community.

So it wonÂ’t be long before someoneÂ’s house is stolen buy a local government
Just to be torn down and replaced by a Wally Mart or sports stadium.
Which ever one makes more money than your personal taxes for the city.

I'm not sure of the spelling but Imminate domain has alway's been around and people always try to fight it for different reasons. My Grandmothers house was taken for an Interstate years ago (at the going market rate). It's nothing new but it suck's. However in the long run it was good for the community (taking my Grandmother's house).

Quote: Originally Posted by Slaymate I'm not sure of the spelling but Imminate domain has alway's been around and people always try to fight it for different reasons. My Grandmothers house was taken for an Interstate years ago (at the going market rate). It's nothing new but it suck's. However in the long run it was good for the community (taking my Grandmother's house).

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/06/24/scotus.property/
"Tuesday's 5-4 ruling found that local officials can use their "eminent domain" power to condemn homes in a working-class neighborhood for private development in hopes of boosting tax revenue and improving the local economy."

Back to the topic at hand...what happened on 9/11 is unfortunate, but it doesn't justify retroactively dismantling what hundreds of thousands of americans have given their lives for. It's terrorism....isolated incidents used to pressure a population by means of fear into passing stupid ass laws that lead them to limit their own rights. Last I checked our culture and freedom is exactly what the terrorists despise about us. The only thing we need protection from is overhyped media stories all hours of the day that create an unnecessary and unrealistic state of constant paranoia......and D!ck Cheney.

And this, my fellow pimps, is why I am a card carrying member of the ACLU. We no longer have the luxery of the Bill of Rights as they have been slowly discarded throughout the years. Yes, the U.S. Government will hold up that sacred piece of paper and declare that they are doing this to protect our country, democracy, and way of life.. but remember this... the United States is not, nor has it ever been a democracy. I'm sure we've all heard the famous "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" quote throughout our lives... or the "freedom of religion" or "right to bear arms" statements... and of course the right to privacy within our own homes... but look at our past... look at the events that have shaped this country over just the past two decades. Freedom is what the government says you can do, when they want you to do it, and how they want you to do it.

Think I'm just blowing smoke? Here are a few small examples that you may wish to chew on...

1. Waco (Religion and right to bear arms taken)
2. No smoking on state/federal property... even while leaning against or sitting in your own vehicle (right of liberty and in some cases pursuit of happiness taken)
3. Patriot Act (privacy grossly taken)

While some may read my words and simple call me Anti-American or maybe even worse, please keep in mind one thing... I have nothing against the United States, our troops (after all.. I'm former military), or any of the afore mentioned sacred documents. I believe in the United States and all that it was founded on. What I have a problem with is greedy politians who want more and more power and/or money no matter the cost. The war on terror, the fight for freedom... call it what you will... but when a country such as ours who is arguably one of the most technologically advanced nations in the world have the equipment to track a mosquito as it flies across a remote desert... then why on earth have they not found the plague against the american way of life (and no, I don't mean Mr. Bush).. I'm refering to Mr. Bin Laden.

In regards to the monitoring of phone and emails... just the mention of any one of a few key words will begin the taping and/or monitoring of your conversation/email/chat. For your own personal reference... these words include but are not limited to the following:

Allah
President
Bomb
Muslim
Christianity
Bush
Washington
D.C.
and many, many more

The so-called "PATRIOT" act is an almost complete abortion manual
of what our founding fathers fought for.

Not only does violate our right to privacy, it rapes Freedom of Speech, Due Process, Right to Trial, and Protection against Cruel and Unusual Punishment.
It also takes an already bloated bureaucracy and adds further lard to it.

Waco is one of the worst cases. That was little more than state-sanctioned
murder-- many of which were children.
(I'll dig it up later but some died of cyanide poisoning due to the use of the flammable chemical weapon CS gas (commonly known as tear-gas)
with a flammable and toxic (in cases of poor ventilation) propellant, methylene chloride.
Tanks (Army Involvement in flagrant violation of the Posse Comitatus) were used to bash holes in the wood-and-concrete buildings for ventilation of the inferno they intentionally set

Back in the Vietnam era, Mai Lay was a source for an incandescent anger against the war.
Today we lack the necessary anger to stand up effectively against our government when it commits atrocities on our own. On Our Own, not the barbarities we commit against insurgents in some far prison, this is our own damn citizens we are talking about.
And if we don't foam at the mouth when our own are tormented by agents of our own government-- how the hell can we take the moral high-ground in the "War On Terror"?

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Extremely well put, Seikatsu. As I mentioned earlier, the Patriot act has our founding fathers rolling over in their graves. What happened to the right to due process, the right to freedom of speech, the prevention of illegal search and seizure, the right to be human for crying out loud.

But that just goes back to a government that is bent on legislating morality and using their own warped sense of morals (public morals.. not private) to set the standard that all Americans should abide. Quite frankly, I feel that my moral values are better than those of many (I will never say all) politians.

Example,

A friend of mine bought 50 shares of United Defense Industries stock on September 10th, 2001. On September 12th, he was phoned by three different agencies to question why he made the purchase, which countries he had visited, the names of his closest friends, and was visited in person to sign a release of phone records for investigation. Come to find out, they had been monitoring and looking though his phone records since shortly after the purchase anyways. Since when does a 17 year old young man making a stock purchase to plan for his future warrant that level of invasion of privacy and/or investigation? The government should stop scrutinizing our lives and look a little closer to home (aka Capital Hill).

Thank you.
Why have we fallen so far?
How in the hell did we become so complacent?
Simple, we coddle, indulge, pamper, and protect those who can't or won't cut the mustard.

Thomas Jefferson once said that
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
There is no blood to be found here, but there is bullsh!t.
Which happens to be one of the deadliest poisons to the Liberty Tree.

Mr. Maus concurs with, "You want your freedom young one? You had better be willing to take it,
for no one will ever give it to you."
He goes on further saying, "The world does not owe anyone anything save misery-- if you learn just one thing in your pitiful life, learn that."
I say all the world's a joke, you have to possess the required sense of humour.