There isn't a printed story that I can find, as I just saw it on CNN here at 5AM but from what I hear San Francisco has banned smoking on outdoor public places.

I'm not a big fan of the political threads and I'm not a smoker but I just find the slow erosion of personal freedoms to be disconcerting. Law to govern personal behavior which doesn't negatively affect other people is just ludicrous to me. While watching that I was just thinking, "Who the **** do they think they are?" I'm a grown-ass man. The balls....to tell an adult he/she can't engage in unhealthy behavior if they choose to do so. It seems like we're inching closer to another prohibition on a daily basis. Next thing you know it'll be illegal to fart in public lest it offend someone's delicate nasal passages.

This from the state, by the way, that legalized the use of medical marijuana.

What does everyone else think?

That's like telling me I can't ride my Sting-Ray on a bike path.

I don't smoke either, drug-free, even I think that's ludicrous

From an aesthetic view, banning smoking outdoors in public places is a good thing, and since San Fran has a big tourism industry they would want to keep things clean. Lets be reasonable here, most ppl who smoke throw their butts wherever they have stopped smoking. Now from a tourism & a municipal Public Works perspective banning smoking is a good thing (remember that the butts will move when it rains and gets into the sewer system, most cities are moving to treating their storm runoff so adding cig. butts to runoff mix means more to deal with.)

Also, ppl seem to forget that you only have a right as long as it doesn't infringe on other's rights.

Just my 2c, I have hard skin so flame away if you like.

As an ex smoker, I can see both sides.

How would you feel about people standing outside you office building spraying rattle cans of cyanide?

I remember reading somplace a while ago (I know, very valid source...) that the state of Michigan spends along the lines of $10M per year picking up cigarette butts from the sides of roads. In regards to treatment of run-off butts, from an environmental standpoint, that is technically hazardous waste...

I am forced to agree with the restrition as smokers tend to gather near the main entrances of most colleges and many businesses...

Well I think that is a stupid law.

Quote: Lets be reasonable here, most people who smoke throw their butts wherever they have stopped smoking.

Yep Your right there, but that is due to there not being enough public ash trays. So most smokers have no choice but to through them where ever. I my self will keep my cigbut with me till I get to a place that I can dispose of it. even if I have to pocket it.

Quote: since San Fran has a big tourism industry they would want to keep things clean.

Well I guess I won't be visiting SF any time soon, now that I have been relived of my freedom to smoke in outdoor public places. Whats next! We are letting our freedoms one by one disappear. Slowly the governments are hearding us tword a world where there are no freedoms at all.

And just recently announced:

Quote: (Kalamazoo, January 26, 2005, 7:21 a.m.) More and more businesses are implementing new policies that forbid managers from hiring smokers, and the practice is legal. A West Michigan community college is no exception. If you smoke, don't even think about applying for a full-time job at Kalamazoo Valley Community College. The new policy went into effect at the beginning of the year. The college will no longer hire into full-time positions individuals who use tobacco products. Full time employees at KVCC before the policy was implemented are not affected, but the college will be offering smoking cessation programs. The policy also says that part-time employees who use tobacco products can not be promoted to full-time until they kick the habit. KVCC's Vice President of Human Resources Sandy Bohnet says it's a plan to save money and improve productivity. She gives two reasons that are driving the policy. First, the college is self-insured. That means KVCC determines how much employees pay for health insurance. She says not hiring smokers will bring claims down. “If we can bring our health claims down by 10 percent, we will reduce personal employee contributions by 10 percent,” Bohnet says. For the second reason behind the new policy, Bohnet points to studies from the Centers for Disease Control that shows smokers use more sick time, aren't as happy, and don't get as much work done as non-smokers. Though some may wonder if the the policy is legal, the college says it's not worried about any legal issues. They say it's not discrimination. Labor law attorney Bill Fallon says there isn't much smokers can do about it. “It really is legal. There is no protection under Michigan law and no protection under federal law for people who smoke,” he says. KVCC isn't the only place in Michigan cutting out smokers. Lansing based Weyco, a company that administers health benefits, also went smoke free and ended up saying goodbye to four employees who refused to take a test to determine if they were using tobacco. “It was very important for us to improve the health status of our employees, and this was one area we knew we could go to eliminate the use of tobacco,” says Weyco's Howard Weyers. Controlling health costs is the name of the game for the two Michigan companies.

well, im usually pretty liberal. this is kinda tossed up in the air for me however. having lived in korea and japan for a few years and seeing how they smoke way more then the average american- they (some) carry around portable ash trays that look like altoids cans and such. However you also see lots of butts on the ground and lots of public ash trays. But hiring someone to pick that stuff up creates jobs doesnt it? Well on the other hand in singapore its illegal to smoke indoors for sure and most outdoor places as well. I think your only allowed to smoke where there is either a sign or a public ash tray posted. They have hardly any butts on the ground and maintain a fairly clean environment.

I used to be a smoker until about 3 years ago now (holy crap time flies) and even when i did smoke - walking out of a club in tokyo at about 8am hitting the bright of day was killer enough, just to get home and realize you smell like absolute club funk. sweaty bodies and LOTS of cigarette smoke is seaped into every fiber of your clothes so bad, it makes me want to puke. Not to mention waking up the next morning with the biggest blackest buggers of your life. AGH disgusting. I have much appreciated the smoke free clubs in california and here in phoenix.

I think my final opinion on this- smoking should be banned INDOORS in all states and countries, however places should offer a smokers patio or some such. I think banning smoking outdoors in public is a little overboard, but for non-smokers its definitly nice. Maybe a compromise with some public smoking rooms or stalls, similar to airports?

I'm not a smoker, but I don't think it's at all right to take away the rights of smokers.

Next thing you know, you won't be able to blow your smoke out your car window into the public place.

Quote: Originally Posted by HappyCamper .. rights of smokers. ...

Not to split hairs but shouldn't that be "freedom" not "rights", you ONLY have a right as long as it doesn't infringe on other ppl's rights. Smoking "infringes" (to be debated if you like) on ppl's right to a safe and HEALTHY environment.

If you think the smoking ban is stupid, read this....

Company Fires All Employees Who Smoke
Michigan Firm Won't Allow Smoking, Even On Employee's Own Time
Full Story

I agree that you should be able to kill yourself as you wish (smoking),but i go to a community college near my home, and there are designatedsmoking places outdoors (people donÂ’t care) i swear 3/4 or more peoplethere smoke outside, and i cough continuously on campus...is it justmeor dose that sound like it ainÂ’t so healthy for me? And personally, IWONT go somewhere were I will be physicallyuncomfortable,and Iamamazingly uncomfortable around cigarette smoke. Almost every personin my family, parrents and cousins smoke, ao i dont go to familyevents. If youÂ’re asmoker, youcan go somewhere else, I cant.

And besides, itÂ’s a privilege, not a right or even a freedom, just likedriving, and if you hurt youself in a car, there is a good chance youlhurt someone else around you.

Edit: damn thing deleted half my spaces...

Second hand smoke is still a hazard. Even outdoors it can be a problem. If it's a windy day, it will disipate rather quickly, but on a windless day, it won't. Normally you wouldn't be bothered by it, but what about at places like the ballpark? I'm an ex-smoker, and couldn't care less if people want to kill themselves. I do draw the line however when my tax dollars go to pay for their health care when they get emphesema, or cancer. Not to mention the rising cost of my health care premiums.

As far as a company firing people for smoking on their own time, I find that to be insane. Are they also going to ban them from driving sport cars? Driving fast can definitely be hazardous to your health.

Here is link
For those to lazy to click.:From the San Francisco Chronicle;
Smokers, take heed: A new law is kicking your butts out of San Francisco parks and open spaces.

The Board of Supervisors voted 8-3 Tuesday to outlaw smoking outdoors in all recreational areas managed by the city except for golf courses. That includes parks, squares, gardens and playing fields but not federal lands such as the Presidio or Ocean Beach.

The ordinance wouldn't be the only one of its kind in the state -- similar ones exist in Los Angeles, Santa Cruz and a dozen other places -- but it would be the most comprehensive.

"Secondhand smoke outdoors is just as dangerous (as indoors)," said Supervisor Michela Alioto-Pier, who said she drafted the law out of concern for the environment and children.

She is following in the footsteps of her aunt, former Supervisor Angela Alioto, who in 1993 wrote the ordinance prohibiting smoking in workplaces, restaurants and public arenas in San Francisco.

"Like other young parents, I have had the wonderful experience of a child picking up a cigarette butt off the lawn and popping it in their mouth," she said, also noting that discarded butts make up 1 out of every 4 pieces of litter in the city, and take up to a dozen years to degrade.

The law now goes to Mayor Gavin Newsom, who is expected to sign it. The ordinance, to be enforced by police and employees, would not go into effect until July 1 to give the city time to erect "no smoking" signs. Supervisor Ross Mirkarimi unsuccessfully tried to get golf courses covered by the ordinance, saying it should apply to all city property. They had been exempted for several reasons, including the possibility that the ordinance could bite into the city's revenue stream, and that discarded cigarette butts aren't a big problem on golf courses.

But, said Mirkarimi, "It has this undertone of elitism."

He voted against the law, along with board President Aaron Peskin and Supervisor Jake McGoldrick.

McGoldrick, who represents the Richmond District, was particularly worried about how the law might disproportionately affect some immigrant communities, including Chinese Mah Jong players at Portsmouth Square who enjoy a cigarette with their game.

But Supervisor Bevan Dufty, who lost his mother to a smoking-related illness, said he welcomed the measure, as did Supervisor Tom Ammiano, who is asthmatic.

"I wish, as a child, there had been that incentive, if she was at a playground with me or a park with me, that she had the incentive not to smoke, " Dufty said.

But the law wasn't as welcome for some San Francisco residents.

At Portsmouth Square park in the heart of Chinatown, cigarette butts littered the ground. The Chinese speakers on Tuesday's drizzly afternoon declined to be interviewed, but a security guard puffing on a cigarette said he was bothered by the idea of the fines -- $100 for the first offense, $200 for the second and $500 for subsequent infractions.

"That's ridiculous, that is, man,'' he said, declining to give his name because he didn't want to get in trouble with his boss. "They need to find something else to stop people from doing.''

The sentiment was echoed elsewhere.

"This is outside, man,'' said Damani Blankenship, puffing on a Newport in Hallidie Plaza at the foot of Powell Street. "I think this new law is terrible. This isn't a bar or a small room. This is outdoors. Lots of fresh air out here. How can this be a problem?''

A smoker who identified himself only as Jim clutched a pack of Marlboros as he walked through the plaza, on his way to the BART station. He did not light up, but that was because there was no time to finish a new cigarette before entering the station, where smoking is illegal.

"I pay my taxes,'' he said. "I work hard. What I do outdoors is my business. I'm not hurting anyone.''

On the other hand, Dr. Mitch Katz, who runs the city's Department of Public Health, was thrilled with the vote.

"People are under the misconception that if they are outside, they are not being exposed," he said. "If you can smell the smoke, your body is inhaling the toxic chemicals in the smoke."

Katz said he hopes the law "will result in fewer smokers and fewer people being exposed to smoke."

i can accualy see why a comapany would want to prevent employees fromsmoking. you kill youself in a car accadent goin way to fast. yourdead. you kill yourself smoking. you are dying for quite a while, andall the time on there health insurance, raisning there costs.

Its all BS ,ya i smoke but im in the class as Ducati,there isnt enuff public ashtrays around to use. I read yer post Noslak and around here you cannot smoke in any sort of public place (unless its a bar or a place that has a smoking section. As for the company that fired folks or the college that wound hire someone that uses tabacoo products ,nice to hear ,thats great call it on health care and all that other stuff, but if you do that you better watch out because the companies and colleges looks like they are becoming the insurance group not not places like state farm. Another thing to add is if a company fired folks for smoking was the option there for theim to get on a program for the patch or gum to help stop smokin,looks to me like it was a easy way to clean house through legal loopholes.
One more thing the im out ....are the places in SF wher the smoking is banned far enough away from high traffic areas...you know car exhaust is just as harmfull and if i was forced to breathe clean air i sure dont wanna buch of exhaust bummin out my trip.

This is a tough subject for me. I can see all sides, and even understand most from first hand experience.
Part 1
Quit smoking 4 years ago, after having smoked for 20 years. Fact: Noonewill quit unless they really want to. Your desire to quit has tobegreater than your desire to smoke.

So I can see how it really is tough for anyone who smokes, and feels their freedom to do with their health, slipping away.

Part 2
I volunteer every Wednesday to drive for an organization thattakes cancer patients to their various appointments. To chemo,radiation,CATscans, doctor visits, etc. Every week I see people who arelookingat their own mortality. The majority either due to smokingthemselves,or having been exposed to secondhand smoke.

So if stopping someone from smoking where anyone who chooses not to smoke, having to walk or pass through and breathe insecondhandsmoke, bummer!

Part 3
My Mom has cancer, and at best has 3 months to live. I have hadtwo other family members die from cancer. Let me tell you, it isa terrible thing to watch somone waste away and die in terrible,unimaginable pain.

If you choose to smoke, do not subject others to it.

Lastly...playing devil's advocate here. If this freedom canbetaken away, what will be next? No drinking in public, because peopleDOdrink and drive? No eating at McDonald's because people die ofobesity?No shopping because people go in debt? What is next is the listof freedoms to be taken away?

/EDIT: What is up with the forusm and the spacing?

Quote: Originally Posted by flounder405 Its all BS ,ya i smoke but im in the class as Ducati,there isnt enuff public ashtrays around to use. I read yer post Noslak and around here you cannot smoke in any sort of public place (unless its a bar or a place that has a smoking section. As for the company that fired folks or the college that wound hire someone that uses tabacoo products ,nice to hear ,thats great call it on health care and all that other stuff, but if you do that you better watch out because the companies and colleges looks like they are becoming the insurance group not not places like state farm. Another thing to add is if a company fired folks for smoking was the option there for theim to get on a program for the patch or gum to help stop smokin,looks to me like it was a easy way to clean house through legal loopholes. One more thing the im out ....are the places in SF wher the smoking is banned far enough away from high traffic areas...you know car exhaust is just as harmfull and if i was forced to breathe clean air i sure dont wanna buch of exhaust bummin out my trip.

I'm a smoker too................Guess what.................That company which is firing those people for being smokers is not helping the non-smokers in as far as receiving additional benifits........it's just to help the company's bottom line.............As far as the companies that are complaining about high medical costs, blame the attorneys of the world for that. Doctors pay so much in malpractice insurance that the only way to recoup that expense is to charge the customer. And that's only one of the reasons for high medical costs. The other major reason for high medical costs is the "Durable Goods" (wheelchairs, specialized medical equipment, etc) and the Pharmacutical companies that have expensed so much R&D funding to come out with the latest / greatest drug that they have to charge exorbrant prices to recoup agin what they spent plus make a great bottom line for the stock holders.

It's all about money.......pure and simple

I'm reminded of a work trip to cali once.

my coworker and i went to a bar for a drink late one night after work,both of us smokers. we ordered our drinks and proceeded to light up asjust about any smoker does when drinking.

the bartender told us that there was no smoking allowed inside, period.my buddy just put his out and made a few statements about how that wasBS to which the bartender agreed as she was a smoker too and so was therest of staff they had there.

I asked her if the manager was there to which she said "no, but itwouldn't make a difference if he was here. he still wouldn't let yousmoke in here". I told her i didn't want to complain to him, i wantedto put my cig out in his eye for not allowing people to smoke at thebar.

we all laughed, then the bartender and the staff invited us out backwith them to smoke a cig and even let us take our drinks outside withus.

Quote: Originally Posted by Demon Made i can accualy see why a comapany would want to prevent employees fromsmoking. you kill youself in a car accadent goin way to fast. yourdead. you kill yourself smoking. you are dying for quite a while, andall the time on there health insurance, raisning there costs.

True dat! THat's why alot of municipalities are going smokeless bars/restaurants because of the health costs of the ppl who work there. Now I know a lot of ppl will say: "Well they could get another job somewhere else, they have a choice." but a lot of ppl don't have the choice, they have children to support, and maybe they were high school drop outs, or they are trying to put themselves through schools and those type of jobs are the only ones that fit into their schedule. sometime you forget that ppl are where they are, not because they want to be, but because they might have fallen onto bad luck